That was why I really took to the Beretta Nano when it came out, because I wanted that "J-frame pull" in a semiauto, but a lot of people freaked out over it. Heck, even I found it off-putting at times, only because it was so different than other semiautos.Originally Posted by JTQ
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Good thread. Thanks for starting it. Here are a few thoughts:
@BehindBlueI’s has good data on wins and losses in self-defense incidents, and failure to operate thumb safeties was among the reasons for losses. That's the primary reason I don't like or carry guns with a TS (cocked-and-locked or otherwise), and do not recommend them for new shooters interested in self-defense. Of course, with practice that concern can be mitigated.
I do not like short-travel triggers for defensive handguns.
I like having an external hammer or gadget to thumb when I holster or otherwise manipulate the gun.
Your comparison of the P-07 in SA to the 365 is interesting. Let's even the comparison by adding a heavy sear spring to a stock P-07 to bring the SA trigger pull to 4.5lbs. Why would we be comfortable carrying a 365 and not a cocked P-07 with no safety? (I have my own answer, but am curious to hear what others think.)
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
This was my biggest question to others. I have and carry a P365xl. I love carrying it because it is super easy to carry and I shoot it well. I will not use one without a thumb safety. I question if this is intelligent or not for multiple reasons though.
I have to take issue with this. Glocks are not cocked until the trigger is pulled. They aren't mechanically capable of firing until that trigger stroke primes the striker that last 2%. "Safe Action" is certainly marketing lingo, but the Glock is not single-action as it is not cocked/primed and ready to fire in its chambered state.
If you were saying that to you, it may as well be a single action gun in terms of how you weigh its relative safety, rather that stating that it is, in fact, a single action firearm, then disregard and apologies that I'm pedant.
State Government Attorney | Beretta, Glock, CZ & S&W Fan
JTQ, thanks for bringing Mr. Langdon's excellent insights into this conversation.
This immediately reminded me of Mr. Bolke's similar thoughts on the matter: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot
I'm no longer personally OK with not having *a* way to block the action of the gun when reholstering as an emergency backup parachute to safe technique, when such options readily exist (hammer, SCD, or safety).
After going from M&P with no safety, to Beretta for the hammer as I became more safety conscious, to a Glock with an SCD since it was lighter to carry, then I just got tired of the Glock grip angle, and I wanted to make the M&P work with a thumb safety. But safeties have always made gripping the gun feel awful, to me, and take too much mental effort to use. Finally figured out why:
My physical range of motion in my right thumb is abysmal. So on top of the reasons you state, even with practice, a safety is a struggle for me. Thankfully, polymer frame DA/SA guns give me everything I want and then some, offering some additional margin on the draw as well.
AD = accidental discharge = the gun going off without the trigger being pulled. This could be due to failure of an internal part that is under spring tension, dropping the gun, or the gun being impacted by a sudden external force.
ND = negilgent discharge = the trigger being pulled before the shooter wants it to be pulled. This could be due to an obstruction while reholstering, dropping/fumbling and catching the gun, an object getting inside the holster, getting on the trigger before the shooter is ready to fire, nervously fingering the trigger, etc.
When having these discussions I think it is very important to seperate AD's from ND's. Otherwise we just talk broadly about "the gun going off when you dont want it to" and the terminology can get confusing since sometimes someone makes a point about likelihood of an ND and someone else takes that as a point about AD's, and vice versa.
In my mind it is really two totally seperate discussions which each ought to be fully thought out independently, and only afterward the conclusions synthesized to make an intelligent decision about what platform is safe/smart to carry.
I hope it's ok if I post my response to your PM (with some additions).
I think the main reason is psychological. People get freaked out by the sight of a cocked hammer, but are ok with a fully-tensioned striker because 'out of sight=out of mind'. My GM friend and former USPSA team coach was a cop who carried a 1911 on duty. He told me that random citizens would frequently warn him, "your gun is cocked!" I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a decocker P-07 with the hammer cocked, but really it's no more risky than carrying a p365.
I like the 365, despite my strong dislike of Sig and especially the 320 (which I used to own 4 of). I recommended the 365 to a friend as his first-ever firearm, and would carry one if there weren't other options I prefer. If I carried a 365, I would be MUCH more careful about holstering than I already am. In some cases, I would remove my holster before replacing the gun. I would use holsters that hold the gun much more tightly.
But I prefer a TDA/decocker, and fortunately the P-07 works better for me than any compact handgun I've tried. I also like Glocks, and sometimes carry a G26 with a Gadget. Objectively, these are 'safer' than a 365, but probably not in a major way. Maybe the safety difference is like driving a full-size Volvo vs a compact car?
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Speaking strictly about the S2 and its lack of firing pin block: that makes an AD more possible, but has no effect on NDs. IMO the likelihood of an AD with an S2 (or similar non FPB hammer guns) is very low, because for that to happen the firing pin has to have enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and also pierce a primer.
That situation is only going to happen when the gun is dropped in a direction that the inertia counteracts the firing pin spring, i.e. muzzle down 90 degrees or close to it. Even if you drop the S2 from high enough and it just happens to land muzzle down, the round is probably going into the floor. As far as guns going off when you dont want them to, shooting into the ground is the least bad direction in most situations.
By contrast, during the P320 "dropgate" tests, it was found the P320 could go off specifically when the muzzle was pointed up at about a 45 degree angle and the gun landed on the backplate area. This is the worst possible direction for an AD to occur, as it is when it is most likely to be pointing at a person standing in the room.
Other reports of striker AD's happen after impacts to the backplate, with forces that would be nowhere near enough inertia to cause an AD on a hammer fired gun.
Having said all that, I still wouldnt carry a hammer fired gun without a FPB, simply because that option does exist, and it does prevent a potential AD in that unlikely scenario described above.
I think like others have said, it's psychological. For some reason people have been convinced a striker fired gun is safer than a hammer fired gun that's cocked without a safety. I would say that if the striker fired gun has some sort of trigger blade safety, then it is slightly safer, but something like a P365 is no different than me carrying a cocked P2000. It just takes a little pressure on the trigger and the gun goes bang. That's my theory on the P320s that keep going off mysteriously. I don't own one but I do own a P365 and noticed how the trigger guard and trigger are nearly the same width, which could be a problem with a holster being narrower in the trigger area. My holster comes extremely close to rubbing the trigger, and since it has no safety, getting pushed back on the side of the trigger during re-holstering would make it go off, just like a cocked and unlocked hammer fired gun. Obviously a very short and light trigger, whether striker fired or hammer, would be more likely to ND.
Disclaimer: I prefer hammer fired guns but currently carry a P365, even though I try not to like Sig.
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