I was not expecting a 3 point sling or a bullpup.
I was not expecting a 3 point sling or a bullpup.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
With my strong side (right) thumb. I simply reach up and activate the light as needed, otherwise it is out of the way. Before everyone has a meltdown about using the strong side thumb to activate something while not wrapped around the back of the gun, I would highly suggest thinking about operating the safety on the AR platform by lefties. Many long range shooters do this, and no less than Buck Doyle (who is a well proven but little known stud out of the USMC) teaches to unwrap the thumb as a counter to high heart rate to get better trigger control.Originally Posted by Vinh
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Can you discuss the thought process that led you to this partcular weapon layout? Do you recommend it to your students?I run a 16" Piston gun as my HD and urban use carbine. It has a sling (Wilderness Giles sling), a 600 lumen Surefire light with a simple push button, and an Aimpoint Comp M4 red dot (10 year battery life with a AA lithium, and they last longer when left on, so it is). It is kept in a condition with a 42 round polymer translucent magazine in place (down loaded by two), no round in the chamber, hammer down and the safety on........wait, you can't do that with yours..........oh yeah, it is 27" long and when run indoors I can run it shorter than a pistol........
Trust me, it is the only gun I run a three point on. The Giles sling just works on these things. The picture was taken with the two point.
Jay, I have long been an AUG advocate and have made no bones about my personal affinity for the system for indoor, vehicle and urban use. I still prefer the AR for a "field" gun. I just don't do a lot of "field" stuff. The AUG no longer takes a ton of dedication. parts are easier to find than in the past and things like magazines are both affordable and easy to find. I would have no issue with a student wanting to run one. Most who have taken classes from us know we are not very dogmatic on what you are running........unless you can't run it. I can easily teach the AUG. I had to sort of seek out the experts when I got started with them. My next AUG will be the new variant in "Mud" color with the 3X and I'll be running a mini red dot on top to see if I like that for a field system.
Plusses....balance (the thing comes up from a ready faster than anything I have found, and I like to work out of a deep low ready rather than through the TV set), very compact, 16" ballistics (also lower noise and blast), no NFA stuff, great ergonomics as far as safety placement and controls, and it runs great with higher capacity magazines that don't hinder manueverability.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
So you're saying that given all realistic available options, you advocate and recommend the AUG (in a similar layout to the one pictured above) to your civilian students for a home defense long gun?
Any downsides?
Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 11-20-2014 at 12:33 PM.
So the AUG isn't a realistic option? Only an NFA AR is? An AR pistol? If you guys think that a suppressed short barreled rifle with two NFA tax stamps is the way to go, great. We don't do much in the way of carbine classes due to not really having a good facility and a zillion former Tier 1 mil guys teaching here, so it isn't that relative, but I have recommended the AUG to many folks, especially the current A3.
Downsides....I guess it's not an AR, more work to support, BUT they generally don't need much. Slower to reload slightly (because there are reams of cases where blowing through 40 round of 5.56 in a US defensive shooting and the very slight difference in speed made a difference..???). You also need to shoot it like an AUG and not an AR...which simply takes training and a little effort.
Jay, have you ever run one indoors or through any kind of extended carbine class to base the vibe that I am getting that they are not a good choice?
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
As Tom alluded to, I consider the AUG a realistic but slightly off-the-wall choice, so I'm interested in your insight.
To me, "realistic" means that the carbine is both of an established type and also that the end-user has options and isn't restricted or limited in any fashion by what they can choose.
I consider AR-15s, Kalashnikovs, AUGs, and Mini-14s as the most realistic options in the United States... probably M-1 Carbines as well. I'd lump the Tavor in with the AUG.
Just got through this thread, great info as always hoping to get a general purpose 5.56 carbine set up soon..curious what you guys think the best of the "realistic" choices are for a lefty long gun shooter. Last time I owned long guns I could see sights with my right eye but now I'll have to retrain myself. Have heard bullpups aren't necessarily the best choice for lefties but have no experience with them.
I am not grasping "off the wall" at all. I am running a gun that is almost a foot shorter than a similarly equipped AR. All the weight is to the rear and is easy to handle with one hand (opening doors, herding kids, talking on the cell phone, etc. which are all important when you are working alone). The two people I know who have lost arms both went to the AUG after losing their arms.....thats a hint. I can compress the gun (think the same way we short stock a shotgun) and make it shorter than an extended pistol, and as short as a compressed pistol. The sling I use allows the gun to sit totally concealed behind me if needed and can be brought into action from that position very quickly. Again, it mounts from the low ready faster than any other rifle I own (and that is a long list). All of my AUG's have been very reliable with very few issues, and mostly ammo related. I was top shooter in the class in my NRA patrol rifle instructor school (44 hours and everything must be done both right and left handed). I have had no issues out shooting most folks I have been around with them, particularly inside of 25 yards (sounds like "home defense" to me).
Magazines......30 or 42 rounders from the factory that are BY FAR the best polymer magazines I have ever used......under $20. Modifications.....doesn't need them, and not recommended, which is good (except for tinkerers). Easy to clean. They tend to run clean.
I actually think this thing is far more "realistic" for the task of defending and working within the home than a military field rifle that others find "normal" but then need to be shortened to a length that creates ballistic suck and become so blasty that a suppressor is almost a requirement. Again, back to shooting an intruder with an NFA weapon with a suppressor. Legal, sure.......but I guarantee that if you have to shoot a "teen" in your home, the short barreled "silenced" rifle will become an issue that I am happy to not bring into the equation.
I can rapidly run the piss out of mine with my left hand as primary if I need to. If you are a lefty, an AUG with a left hand bolt is a viable choice. Like many things, if you have never run the system in the field, or never had good instruction on how to run the gun properly, then I could see it not being on someone's radar, but just because someone only understands a couple of systems, doesn't make my choice anyway wrong..........especially noting that I have likely cleared far more structures than most here for real.
I'll quote Giles Stock (Phoenix PD retired/Gunsite Instructor) "I often had people talk crap about the AUG. My challenge was simple, bring your AR or MP5 or whatever else you want to the range and your shooting drills. Also bring lunch money because I am hungry." Giles said the worst he did was a couple of tie's with some exceptionally good shooters, but he never bought lunch.
Also, "established". Things have been around since 77. In service with several countries (if the Australians had just bought Austrian rather than build their own they would have been happier), and I was recommended the gun by members of both our country and a solid ally's top level counter-terror units who used them operationally and preferred them to the M4 in some situations. Also in use by both the counter-terror assets of Austria and Germany. Many Gunsite Carbine classes were both taught and won with a AUG I currently own. As long as its a Steyr, they are one of the most problem free systems out there, so I am missing the "established" part...............but a pistol with a legal loophole "brace" is somehow "established". Okay.....I'll keep my "not established" gun.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
I don't know why you're getting so defensive about it, and choosing to fixate on words you choose to find offensive or derogatory. People are just asking questions. Bahsam has said that if everyone else is dong things one way, and you're doing things another, that might be a clue.
The Aug, in American society, is an anachronism, like it or not. I've always loved them (too much Miami Vice as a kid, I guess) but always found them cost-prohibitive during the ban, suspect after the ban (at least as made by companies other than Steyr), and lost track of what's the new hotness with them since.
This whole discussion is so esoteric as to probably not matter. Non-LE civilian HD rifles? That's a one-in-a-billion usage. Even in LE circles, how many "patrol carbines" or SWAT rifles actually ever get shot?
For me, I choose the AR SBR, with can, because it's what I have, and it's what most closely matches my play guns. Familiarity with the controls, knowing how to compensate for problems, etc far outweighs any other reasonable factors.
I'd like to Steyr field a 3-gun team.
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