Mission Drives the Gear Train - Home Defense Carbine

[P30shtr]

His Glock benefits from spending the vast majority of the time it's not actively spitting pieces of plated lead downrange in a holster than protects the trigger. If you had to carry the Glock on a sling around your neck potentially slapping on your other gear, would you want it to have a safety? Besides, flicking the safety off on an AR as it comes up from the ready adds no time or difficulty. It's not an excuse or allowance to be sloppy with the trigger finger.

Claiming that one will get lax in trigger discipline because of a manual safety is a little like saying you'll drive wrecklessly because your car has modern airbags and seatbelts. Bad analogy, rollcages and 5 point harnesses= faster. Just ask Todd, he went to Porsch-aa school If you're not capable of maintaining that discipline with the safety, why would you be able to maintain the discipline without the safety? It's a bit of a non-sequitur to me.

Because you then rely on the safety, you rely on the airbag, you rely on the rollcage, you rely on the harness when you push the issue to save your ass. Sadly this stuff fails sometimes.

There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. <Straight outta the guys keyboard (glockmaster and FWIW he's been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so he has a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community.< Gospel right)

Apparently cops are reckless and negligent, you pick whichever term you like better.. Who'd a thought. He said it, not me. Flame suit on

As for slopping around and banging off of gear. I guess it would be hot/safety on (I contradict myself here because safeties fail) or empty chamber safety off. Both ways skipping a step (empty/safe on). Either way is up to you.

I may be out of my league but, it seems like stupid police politics to me.

[Shellback]

train of thought lost, damnit

You may want to pull back on the reins a little bit.

[P30shtr]

You may want to pull back on the reins a little bit.

Oh, I got it back. Do you disagree with the post right above yours??

[Shellback]

Oh, I got it back. Do you disagree with the post right above yours??

Honestly, it's a bit hard to follow your posts. The last couple of posts are convoluted and disjointed making it a bit difficult to understand fully what your point is other than the obvious vitriol you have for several other forum members in this thread. If that isn't your intention then you might want to slow down and proof read what you've typed before hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

As for me, I'm a safety on kind of guy and plant my flag with several others in this thread for the same reasons that they've already extolled, VMI covered it pretty well in his previous posts.

I carry a Glock 19 every day in an IWB holster. It has 3 passive safeties along with residing in my holster approximately 99% of the time. Whenever it's out of my holster I observe the 4 safety rules and do not have my finger on the trigger, unless I'm intentionally pressing it to the rear.

[P30shtr]

Honestly, it's a bit hard to follow your posts. The last couple of posts are convoluted and disjointed making it a bit difficult to understand fully what your point is other than the obvious vitriol you have for several other forum members in this thread. If that isn't your intention then you might want to slow down and proof read what you've typed before hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

As for me, I'm a safety on kind of guy and plant my flag with several others in this thread for the same reasons that they've already extolled, VMI covered it pretty well in his previous posts.

I carry a Glock 19 every day in an IWB holster. It has 3 passive safeties along with residing in my holster approximately 99% of the time. Whenever it's out of my holster I observe the 4 safety rules and do not have my finger on the trigger, unless I'm intentionally pressing it to the rear.

Your "passive" safeties are a ------ joke. Leaving you with ONE. Practice it well my friend. Practice it well.

Again, do you disagree with post #81 ? As for the rest of my posts, what dont you get? Let me know, I'll clue you in.

[LOKNLOD]

Bad analogy, rollcages and 5 point harnesses= faster. Just ask Todd, he went to Porsch-aa school

Because you then rely on the safety, you rely on the airbag, you rely on the rollcage, you rely on the harness when you push the issue to save your ass. Sadly this stuff fails sometimes.

There have been lots of LEO's and others ( bad guys and innocent) that have been unintentionally shot because the safety was not being used when the weapon was being handled or slung. <Straight outta the guys keyboard (glockmaster and FWIW he's been in LE for over two decades and currently the chief firearms instructor for a state LE agency that has 1800+ sworn members so he has a grasp as to what goes on in the LE community.< Gospel right)

Apparently cops are reckless and negligent, you pick whichever term you like better.. Who'd a thought. He said it, not me. Flame suit on

As for slopping around and banging off of gear. I guess it would be hot/safety on (I contradict myself here because safeties fail) or empty chamber safety off. Both ways skipping a step (empty/safe on). Either way is up to you.

I may be out of my league but, it seems like stupid police politics to me.

I disagree, the analogy stands -- the extra gear in the car allows for a higher margin of safety while performing more advanced maneuvers in a controlled manner closer to the limits of both driver skill and machine capability. Reckless may mean faster, but faster does not automatically mean reckless. A higher level of driving carries higher consequences should something go wrong, mentally or mechanically, and that safety equipment is in place to provide an additional layer of protection to mitigate the risks associated with the situation.

The safety on an AR is similar in that it provides an extra layer of protection against unintentionally discharging the weapon. It is secondary/supplemental to good weapons handling. Using the safety doesn't mean that it is being relied on as the primary or only way to keep the gun from being fired. Although... If folks are as inept as you imply, no amount of trigger discipline will matter, and it sounds like a mechanical safety is all the more important.

Your thesis come across as insisting that people are so incompetent and undisciplined that having a safety causes them to abandon all weapons handling skills, so they should stop using the safety and just rely on being competent and disciplined (which they seem to be inherently incapable of doing).

As for the other comments... Many people are reckless and negligent, and all cops are people, so no surprise there is probably plenty of overlap in those two sets. Making potentially inflammatory comments about LE, regardless of truthfulness, is probably going to turn out counterproductive to successfully arguing the point you are trying to make. And I'm not a cop, nor am I giving them a free pass.

[DocGKR]

P30shtr--You are wrong.

Here is a sample of top level instructors who all have one thing in common: Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Chris Costa, Scotty Reitz, Kyle Defoor, Mike Pannone, Jason Falla, Jim Smith, Tom DiTomosso, Mike Lamb, Don Lazzarini, and the guys at TigerSwan--they all mandate safety use. Maybe they know something you don't...

[P30shtr]

P30shtr--You are wrong.

Here is a sample of top level instructors who all have one thing in common: Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzales, Chris Costa, Scotty Reitz, Kyle Defoor, Mike Pannone, Jason Falla, Jim Smith, Tom DiTomosso, Mike Lamb, Don Lazzarini, and the guys at TigerSwan--they all mandate safety use. Maybe they know something you don't...

Thats good, so do I. How do any of those guys come into play? I never said lets all run around and be unsafe. I guess my point was empty chamber/safety on, seems kinda silly or overkill.

Another I guess was how the "police" glockmaster was referring to, rely on safeties to not shoot themselves, bad guys and, innocents on accident. Almost making it sound like it was the guns fault because it didnt have a safety rather than the guy behind the weapon. Maybe if some of these guys hadnt of had their finger where it didnt belong when it didnt belong there the numbers might be a little lower for these ND's he refers too. But now that they have these fancy new safeties (to rely on) everything will be all better. I'll give you the "while the weapon is slung" part. Cant argue there.

Which kinda brings me to the car stuff. Relying on safeties instead of proper trigger discipline is like relying on air bags and seatbelts while behind the wheel, dont do it. Can they all help, sure they can. I never said they couldnt. Just dont rely on them as the be all end all.

And then theres those "passive safeties". They worked out pretty good for the guy in N.Va recently huh. (my condolences to the guy, his fam, and any of you who may have known him. I know some of you are from that area)

Hope this cleared it up a little

[LittleLebowski]

Our SMEs have the title for a reason. Not given, earned.

Let's forcefully nudge this back to reasoned, civil discussion.

[Jay Cunningham]

Let's start a separate discussion if we must. Let's also stay within our lane of experience when speaking on a subject or topic. If you are inexperienced but have an opinion, simply state that. If you are inexperienced and have an opinion and are challenging someone experienced with an educated opinion, do so in the most respectful possible manner.