Do you Train for Reality?

[Dagga Boy]

I think the instance to which I am referring was a Clint Smith Urban Rifle class, not some kind of Flat Dark Earth Hosefest, but your point is absolutely true.

That aside, I really do think that the average consumer vastly overestimates the ruggedness of a sporting arm vis a vis firearms designed to survive rough handling and high round counts with sketchy maintenance in a service-type environment. (My personal rough rule of thumb is that if a firearm can't be disassembled without tools, then it's an indication that it was meant to be cleaned and serviced someplace where there was a light and a workbench and a stool on which to sit. )

Right on the money. I am a big fan of "the ability" to use "sporting guns" in a defensive role, and find it to be critical for those who live in highly restrictive, gun averse, and heavily regulated areas of the country. On the other hand, they are, in fact, sporting guns and are not designed for heavy field use with little maintenance. We also find that they don't temporarily "go down" in class where a little wonder lube in the right place or a quick take down and clear out and you are back on the line. We have found when these things "go down" in class (or worse,in the field when being deployed) they need to go to a gunsmith or the factory.

[BLR]

That the only things I have seen do more damage than a shotgun round to a human body, with a single hit, are cars and trains is part of my decision making process.

No one ever protested the use of a carbine in warfare...

#Winchester 1897

[Chuck Haggard]

Heck, you can fix an 870 with a pair of nail clippers.

I think I read that somewhere!



Ref some "sporting guns", stuff like a pre 64 model 70 that is basically a copy of a Mauser falls into the same relm as the other service grade or .mil spec weapons.

A few years ago I started weeding guns that either can't take a beating or I can't work on myself. For me that included AKs and a bunch of sporting grade stuff. (You can get parts and cheap ammo for AKs and SKSs now, but one EO and import is done....)


Ref the original thread topic, sort of, I think shotguns fit rather well in many people's reality. Outside of the noted legal issues and being with giant varmints, I know folks who live out in the sticks that have the shotgun applied to a dual role of hunting and varmint blasting as well as home defense. Although the FBI might not approve of the wound ballistics, I know several people who have a gauge loaded with the first couple of rounds out of the tube being large shot turkey or duck/goose loads followed by #4 or OO buck.
Sure a short magnum turkey load isn't optimum for bad guys, but at close range they will do a lot of damage, and they pattern tight on things like skunks and running coyotes.

Add a CCH pistol or revolver of some sort and most people are fairly well set.

[Dagga Boy]

No one ever protested the use of a carbine in warfare...

#Winchester 1897

I was in an exchange program with German cops for many years. We had a bunch at the range and one of the range guys asked if they wanted to "shoot an MP-5" like it was the greatest thing ever. I told the guy that these cops had Mp-5's in every car, so just get out some shotguns for them to shoot. The German guys eyes lit up and one of them said "we can't carry shotguns because in Germany they are too inhumane to shoot people with." I have a feeling that may be some left over Winchester 1897 action with their great grandpa's in some trenches with Americans.

[BLR]

You would be hard pressed to come up with something more capable and versatile than a good 870 in the hands of someone used to scatter guns.

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[JodyH]

You would be hard pressed to come up with something more capable and versatile than a good 870 in the hands of someone used to scatter guns.

Probably the ultimate SHTF firearm.
Not only will it kill anything in North America, you can harvest anything in North America with one.

[LSP972]

The German guys eyes lit up and one of them said "we can't carry shotguns because in Germany they are too inhumane to shoot people with." I have a feeling that may be some left over Winchester 1897 action with their great grandpa's in some trenches with Americans.

That's the general consensus in Europe, period. And I'll wager large it is indeed a direct result of our use of the things in WW1. IIRC, the Germans basically said anyone of our guys they caught with a shotgun would treated like a spy, or whatever, and immediately executed. This from a bunch of bastards who employed mustard gas... of course, our Secretary of War (Henry Stimson?) responded that we would do the same to "normal" German prisoners if THEY did it to ours.

I too was involved with working cops from other countries, and made these observations:

The Germans were very interested in our weaponry and policies for use of same. I even detected a bit of envy in a few of them when they learned of the relative latitude my particular agency's troops had in choosing a duty sidearm.

The Brits, for the most part, were a bit on the haughty side and stopped just short of openly referring to us as trigger-happy cowboys. Nothing like some socialistic brain-washing to condition the thought processes, eh? I wonder if they still feel the same way, now that their government's policies are bringing some serious violence home to roost, as it were...

The two Russians were just plain 10-8. They were supremely impressed with our choice of a .45 ACP issue sidearm, and indicated dissatisfaction with their issue "mouse gun cartridge" (their words). When I made them copies of some of Marty Fackler's (and other IWBA luminaries') work, you would have thought I gave them the keys to the kingdom. Good dudes; solid, straightforward, not a drop of bullshit in them.

In short, we got along famously with the Germans and the Russians. The Brits could have stayed at home, for all I cared. FWIW, I ran across this same snotty, superior attitude amongst the Brit soldiers I interacted with during my army days... particularly the officers. My wife is from Scotland; I've made two trips there with her to visit. I got some of the same bemused tolerance attitude both times.

Oh, well...

.

[Dagga Boy]

The German cops were shocked at how much we shot, how often we were deploying guns in the field, and thought that our .45 Colt Revolvers and Remington 870's were the true hammers of Thor ...........oh, I'm sorry, I meant "retro cool minimalist crap".......my bad.

[BLR]

The only thing better than a Scattergun Technologies 870 is a really nice M12 Trench Gun.

I just wish the 870 trigger guard wasn't so cheezy.

[Drang]

(Shootin' Buddy went to a carbine class down at Tiger McKee's place with his friend from Chicago and decided to run a lever gun himself as a show of support. Between the two of them, I think they had five out of four Marlins go down in three days... Grandpa's hunting rifle just won't take a beatin' like most people think it will. )

During one of my visits to the Custer Battlefield, a discussion ensued with the park historian. Someone asked why the troops were armed with Trapdoor Springfields instead of lever action repeaters. Aside from the natural conservatism of the military, and although the Trapdoors had a problem with brass breaking off after prolonged firing, the lever actions were far less reliable in a prolonged battle.

That's the general consensus in Europe, period. And I'll wager large it is indeed a direct result of our use of the things in WW1. IIRC, the Germans basically said anyone of our guys they caught with a shotgun would treated like a spy, or whatever, and immediately executed. This from a bunch of bastards who employed mustard gas...

I'm sure my German cousins would say that my British cousins used it first.

FWIW, I ran across this same snotty, superior attitude amongst the Brit soldiers I interacted with during my army days... particularly the officers..

I got along well with the Brit NCOs I met during an ABCA Exercise at Ft Ord, and the ossifers seemed OK. The NCOs couldn't get over the fact that we didn't allow coffee in the exercise building. We were still terrified of breaking one of those new-fangled computer things. This was in '87, IIRC.