Ohio Instructor ND's into Student's Arm....

[gtmtnbiker98]

A few things to think on........

From my Good Friend and Mentor Greg Ellifritz. ( He said it WAY better than I ever could)


"A lot of my friends are linking to this story about an instructor accidentally shooting a student during a concealed carry class. Most of the comments are very disparaging of the instructor and make the assumption that he is a poorly trained, inept, NRA basic handgun instructor. That isn't the case.

While his actions and lax safety protocols are inexcusable, he isn't an "idiot instructor" like many are assuming. The man who accidentally shot his student was the man who taught me to shoot a handgun. He has been instructing longer than most of you have been alive.

Back when I was a little kid in the 1970s, the instructor that all of you are disparaging was a police Captain, Rangemaster, and lead instructor for the police department where my dad was a part time cop. His instruction at the time was revolutionary. He built home made shoot houses, set up jungle lanes with pop up targets, and did force on force scenario training with wax bullets and .38 revolvers way before anyone ever heard of simunitions or airsoft. In the 70's and 80's that was unheard of, especially for a 20-officer rural police department.

He always took the time to run a 10-year old kid (me) through all the scenarios and drills he put his cops through. He had a lot of knowledge and he was never shy about sharing it...even with a little kid who was obsessed with guns.

He retired from the police department and then took over the training for all of the armed security guards for Nationwide Insurance. He ran numerous police academies and hosted countless high level training classes for cops all around the state.

Even though I haven't spoken to him for quite some time and he's getting on in years, he still might be able to out shoot me with a revolver.

I'm not trying to defend his actions. I'm just trying to impart some information that some of you may not know. I know some very competent and high level instructors who have had ADs in class. I've witnessed some of them. People fuck up. But that one fuck up isn't necessarily a reflection on their character or knowledge.

For those of you who teach, don't be too quick to criticize because it might be you in the hot seat next time, no matter how "high speed" you think you are. Instead, use incidents like this one to examine your own safety protocols to ensure no one gets shot in your classes.
Ohio instructor shoots student in gun-safety class"

He will probably be charged. Section 2903.14 Ohio Revised Code.

[ToddG]

A few things to think on........

I've lost count of the number of times I've decried our community's insistence on excommunicating and crucifying everyone who commits a safety violation with a firearm. We get so wrapped up in "that shouldn't happen!" that we lose sight of why it happened and, more importantly, we gloss over any rational discussion of how to prevent it in the future. I'm too safe to make that mistake! is not an adequate prevention plan.

OTOH, when your mistake actually results in shooting someone -- especially a student who came to you to learn about firearms safety -- then you haven't simply made a little mistake. You've shot someone and, as gtmt points out, that's usually a crime. It's the difference between saying "I was driving distracted and veered into another lane" versus "I was distracted and veered into another car."

As this forum has discussed more than once before, the Cardinal Rules represent multiple redundant layers of safety specifically to avoid these kinds of accidents. For someone to shoot another person accidentally multiple mistakes have to be made. That very reasonably calls into question what happened and why.

So while I don't think this one instance should define the instructor's entire history, neither does his history redefine this instance.

[Prdator]

Well said dude!!

[TCinVA]

Doesn't really matter how many little old ladies you helped across the street when there's one smeared all over your front bumper. Sort of the same thing here.

[baddean]

In our classes we have always told students that there are no accidents only negligence. And now reading this thread I referred to Websters dictionary (I'm glad a teacher taught me how to read) to see what the difference was.
Accident: An unfortunate event resulting from carelessness, unawareness, ignorance, or a combination of causes.
Negligent: Failure to exercise the care that a prudent person usually exercises. (culpably careless or indicative of such carelessness)
I guess one might consider what happened in Columbus and "accident" but I think I'm still going with "negligent".
Neglecting the basic safety procedures. No live ammo in the classroom, ever!
With classes coming up the next two weekends this just reinforces safety procedures.
Oh, and what Todd said.

[Chuck Haggard]

I often ask people who go all Spanish Inquisition on people who have had an ND if they have ever had a car accident. Most of them have. I then point out that they had likely displayed the same level of momentary inattention that it takes to ND a gun.

Lots of people think an ND is a huge big deal, but car accidents not so much.

Just an observation.

[LHS]

I often ask people who go all Spanish Inquisition on people who have had an ND if they have ever had a car accident. Most of them have. I then point out that they had likely displayed the same level of momentary inattention that it takes to ND a gun.

Lots of people think an ND is a huge big deal, but car accidents not so much.

Just an observation.

Depends on whether your accident kills/injures anyone or not, I suppose.

[Chuck Haggard]

Depends on whether your accident kills/injures anyone or not, I suppose.

Somewhat, but the point is just because you got lax and didn't kill anyone doesn't mean you didn't F up. One gets lucky at times, doesn't mean they did anything right at all.

[LHS]

Somewhat, but the point is just because you got lax and didn't kill anyone doesn't mean you didn't F up. One gets lucky at times, doesn't mean they did anything right at all.

Absolutely, but they don't put you in prison for veering left of center. They put you in prison for veering left of center, smashing head-on into another car, and killing five people.

[Tamara]

I often ask people who go all Spanish Inquisition on people who have had an ND if they have ever had a car accident. Most of them have. I then point out that they had likely displayed the same level of momentary inattention that it takes to ND a gun.

Lots of people think an ND is a huge big deal, but car accidents not so much.

Just an observation.

It's still important to not just hand-wave these things away, but rather to draw a lesson from them. The big lesson I'm taking away here is that forty bucks for a blue gun and we wouldn't be having this conversation.