Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

[beltjones]

Do you think that is true of guns with longer and heavier triggers?

I'm no expert, but I know the people I know who shoot da/sa guns say the same thing - get sights on target, pull trigger. In that order. Probably some bad shooters with da/sa guns try to get on the trigger early because they have weak hands or they have bad habits or whatever. I can't really comment on that.

However, I think we can all agree that getting on the trigger before the sights are on the target is doing it wrong. Unless someone wants to argue for it I don't think it's a point of discussion any longer.

[GJM]

I'm no expert, but I know the people I know who shoot da/sa guns say the same thing - get sights on target, pull trigger. In that order. Probably some bad shooters with da/sa guns try to get on the trigger early because they have weak hands or they have bad habits or whatever. I can't really comment on that.

However, I think we can all agree that getting on the trigger before the sights are on the target is doing it wrong. Unless someone wants to argue for it I don't think it's a point of discussion any longer.

Yes or no, black or white agreement went out for me a long time ago. The Rogers School, for example, teaches starting from the transition with a DA/SA pistol in DA with your trigger finger lightly on the trigger.

I would wager money that slow motion video would show almost every shooter to be on the trigger/in the trigger guard/or some variation of the two earlier than they think they are. As a result, my personal view is the most important rule is to not muzzle someone or something you are unwilling to shoot, regardless of finger position.

[beltjones]

Yes or no, black or white agreement went out for me a long time ago. The Rogers School, for example, teaches starting from the transition with a DA/SA pistol in DA with your trigger finger lightly on the trigger.

I would wager money that slow motion video would show almost every shooter to be on the trigger/in the trigger guard/or some variation of the two earlier than they think they are. As a result, my personal view is the most important rule is to not muzzle someone or something you are unwilling to shoot, regardless of finger position.

Yeah yeah - only Sith deal in absolutes. I get that.

However, I'm just trying to take the "early trigger pull" out of the context of the discussion. It just doesn't seem relevant based on what Mr. Avery said, and of course based on commonly accepted principles of gun safety.

[jetfire]

So, caleb, I know you switched from a press out style to an index draw specifically on the recommendation of Mr. Norris. Just how much was the time difference?

For what I do? About 0.3 seconds on average. Because an index draw works better for competition shooting.

The problem is that we're having a stupid argument about semantics. If I had a student come to class using a four count Gunsite draw and the Weaver stance, I'd show him my way of doing things, and ask him that since he was paying me good money that maybe he should try them. But ultimately if you're getting good, accurate hits at a reasonable speed and not being unsafe, I don't care if you use an index draw, a pressout, or a four count draw. I've used 'em all, and hybrids of them, and they all work reasonably well. Much better to pick one and ****ing practice it.

[JHC]

Awesome vid thanks. Any idea what the trigger pull weight is of that single action pistol? Do you think he'd wait as late with a 7-8lb pull crunchenticker?

[JV_]

Much better to pick one and ****ing practice it.

Exactly. Arguing over which one is best gets old after the first page of posts. Find the one that meets all of your requirements (speed/hit rate/consistency) and practice it. I revisit other methods when I feel like I plateau; sometimes it will force me to change something small, other times I don't change anything.

What works for me probably won't work for the guy in the next booth - and I don't really care.

[41magfan]

I keep hearing a repeated reference to the “4-Step draw” as if it were totally different from some other technique of presenting the gun from a holster. The 5-Step (4-Step if you have no manual safety) Presentation is/was taught at Gunsite as a simple way of quantifying the movements associated with getting the gun out safe, efficiently and smoothly - with relative economy of motion. Once the movements are understood and demonstrated, the actual drawing movements are fluid and cannot really be discerned from any other “technique”. Anything that resembles mechanical motions has nothing to do with the 4/5-Step Presentation as conceived or taught at Gunsite.

For purposes of this discussion, (as taught at Gunsite) how you go about bringing the gun to eye level after you clear the holster is entirely up to you and the circumstances of your environment. By whatever designation you want to name or rename it, the presentation is simply a means to an end – nothing more and nothing less. If you want to modify the simple act of drawing the gun to more or less than four or five steps and then call it something “new” then feel free to do so, but I think the wheel has already been invented.

In the realm of defensive shooting, I'm firmly convinced that a presentation that delivers good hits on target in 1.5 seconds - on demand with very little maintenance - trumps a 1 second draw that takes thousands of rounds to maintain and can only be done reliably under favorable conditions. But that's just my opinion - feel free to disagree.

[beltjones]

Did it look like Cory did thousands of repetitions? It looked like only a few to me.

There are loads of criticisms that people lob at different techniques, and one that constantly gets lobbed at certain kinds of shooters is that they take too many reps to learn. It's hogwash. Effective application of the fundamentals bears immediate results. Elite shooters simply practice the fundamentals more than others, and they practice because it's fun and they want to beat others who are also practicing.

I've also never heard the "it takes too much practice" complaint when it comes to a host of other "important" activities like martial arts, race driving, whatever. I don't know why "too much practice" gets to be an excuse for something as important as shooting a gun.

[Mr_White]

Case in point:

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that was the wig's fault.

Lol. Actually I fell because the sheets and comforter were a little slick and I have never practiced jumping onto a bed in a stable shooting position before. Good thing I got that bad rep out of the way in case I have to do it for real some time. And when I met Ben in class, he said he saw that video from the night before, and he was all like, "your downstairs neighbors must love you." And I was shocked because I was thinking, "well who is the irresponsible a-hole now?" because it appeared to be me, not him. It wasn't that late at night...

My wife hates that wig so much. I frequently threaten to wear it all the time. But she would probably leave me and it would be the wig's fault.

[Mr_White]

I am spurred to mention a couple of subtleties of this draw discussion by Josh’s comment in his training journal here about trying a muzzle-level pressout: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...l=1#post135141

I’ve experimented with different draw variations over the last couple of years. The one I have stuck to the most is what I would now describe as the J-draw or maybe micro-pressout. I think it is probably very close to what Todd has described before as a hybrid pressout, but without the intentional muzzle-tilted intermediary position.

I do like seeing the sights (or possibly coarser visual information) and working the trigger while extending the gun in the horizontal line of presentation. But, I do not like using the muzzle-tilted position, nor do I like slowing the gun before I am actually trying to decelerate it to a full stop at the end of the stroke.

Basically I attempt to move the gun through an up-and-out path, like a muzzle-level pressout. Except because of wrist flexibility and trying to keep the muzzle level, I don’t get the gun into the eye-target line as close to my face as Todd does. That makes the horizontal line of presentation in the eye-target line a little shorter. The overall stroke ends up being shaped like a sideways J, which is a path somewhere in between a pressout proper and my old 4-count draw that was unconcerned with getting the gun into the true eye-target line until its final position.

But, the muzzle is not actually level 100% of the time despite my intentions. I have seen still frames of myself from drawing on video where I can see my wrists make me have a very slight unintentional muzzle-tilt after the hands join and as the gun moves into the true eye-target line.

And I don’t slow the gun until the last few inches of extension, which is where I can clearly see the sights as the gun decelerates and the sights are not rapidly changing focal depth on me, refine the sight picture as needed, and do the last part of working the trigger. Hence why I am calling it the J-draw (for the shape of the path) or micro-pressout (for the pressout in the span of a few inches.) What fun is life if you can’t name things?

That’s a lot of introspection and yammering on a pretty simple thing – get the gun out of the holster and on target as efficiently as possible – but those are my thoughts on some of the subtle mechanics of it that are related to this draw discussion.

And despite my love for studying and practicing and wallowing in subtleties of the draw, I think this is a good comment:

better to pick one and ****ing practice it.