Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

[Al T.]

What about if I need to draw to an elevated target say up a flight of stairs or around a corner, around a corner down a flight of stairs or while driving then I need to get my gun around the wheel

That to me is the advantage of the 4-count draw. I don't need to have more techniques, I need one good one I can execute without having to think about it.*




* And I'm willing to look at new TTPs as they come along.

[Sal Picante]

One question that I haven't really seen answered.

To the guy's saying I train one draw and thats all I need, thats all well and good standing on a flat range blasting steel.

What about if I need to draw to an elevated target say up a flight of stairs or around a corner, around a corner down a flight of stairs or wile driving then I need to get my gun around the wheel and get myself out of the car because if I'm drawing from a car it's because I can't get away.

Or I could be on the ground.

I just feel that you should work on a few different techniques sure you will have a bit more information in your brain but you will favour one over the others. It's a bit like learning to shoot weak hand only or running you gun with one hand hope you never need to know how but better to learn the skill before the gun fight.

As far as the finger on the trigger I agree I'm not a fan of that at all I myself don't put my finger on the trigger till I have an acceptable sight picture
in fact it's my index finger that I use to index my pistol. There is one exception to that as someone else stated if I have decided to shoot.

I don't think that Avery said anything about having one draw - in fact I think it was Todd that said one draw stroke was simpler to learn.

If you want to learn & practice a myriad of draw techniques that vary depending on target distance, size, movement, and clutter that's certainly your choice. Then all you need to do is pick the right one under the right circumstances on the fly under stress. Probably pretty easy for you. Me, I'm not really good at figuring out whether I'm six vs. eight yards from something especially when it's dark and one or both of us are moving around. I don't want to be thinking about whether the table or car or other barrier in front of me is close/tall enough to interfere with an angled draw. I don't want to be thinking about how my concealment garment might drag or catch differently for Presentation Style A vs Presentation Style B vs Presentation Style C Type 3 Mod 1.

I actually agree with you that a person can adapt their draw when required. Todd doesn't agree:

All due respect to Avery, but a philosophy of I can modify it in the moment is a lot easier said than done. The whole reason we practice our draw thousands and thousands of times is so that we can execute it without thinking and without slowing down for a decision-making step.

[joshs]

Since you seem ok with adding time to your draw by pausing at extension for low% shots, I'm not sure why adding time by slowing the extension instead is so mind warping.

Everyone I've observed who does present, pause, press modulates the speed of their draw at the very end to avoid a hard stop and the accompanying sight disruption on more difficult shots.

To the guy's saying I train one draw and thats all I need, thats all well and good standing on a flat range blasting steel . . .

I think it comes down to the benefit of getting the gun to extension with your vision rather than proprioception. No matter what weird position I draw from or weird angle I have to draw to, once I get the gun into the eye target line, everything is pretty much the same.

[Sal Picante]

I think it comes down to the benefit of getting the gun to extension with your vision rather than proprioception. No matter what weird position I draw from or weird angle I have to draw to, once I get the gun into the eye target line, everything is pretty much the same.

So is it more advantageous the quicker the sights get to the eye line, right?

[ToddG]

So is it more advantageous the quicker the sights get to the eye line, right?

Yes. So if we follow the "shortest distance is a straight line" argument that the index draw people like to use, the shortest distance from my holster to my eye line involves keeping the gun close to my body instead of adding extension distance as well.

So IF you don't want to touch the trigger until you see your sights, and IF you don't have an index built up that is precise enough to make the shot you may need to take, bringing the gun up to your eye line is faster. (Note I didn't say it's always the most fastestest)

[GJM]

Seems like we have three questions/issues going on here:

1) Do we draw in the straightest line (index draw) or get the sights in the eye line quicker with the inverted J (or whatever we are calling it now)?

2) Do we break the shot at the extension of the press out or get the pistol out as quickly as possible, refining the sight picture if necessary at extension?

3) When do we put the finger on the trigger and how does that relate to following rule 2, never muzzling anything you aren't willing to shoot?

Do I have the questions right or is there something I missed?

[beltjones]

re: cherry-picking a photo

I didn't. Watch all the draws in that video in slow motion. You'll see a pretty consistent change in the student's technique viz-a-vis trigger contact. As he was being pushed to go faster and move his gun in a straight line from the holster he started getting his finger on the trigger earlier than I would like to see. It wasn't corrected by Avery and if you watch his draws he does it, too, so presumably he is comfortable with it. So are some other instructors. To each his own. But let's not pretend it was just an accidental one time thing.

re: slowing the extension for low% shots

Candidly, the only people who seem to get wrapped around the axle on this are people who haven't been exposed to the technique except online, and usually by people who've already made up their minds to dislike the technique altogether. It seems like you have this impression of people taking half an hour to go from close in to full extension along the eye line. That's not the case. Since you seem ok with adding time to your draw by pausing at extension for low% shots, I'm not sure why adding time by slowing the extension instead is so mind warping.

I saw the post on Pistol-Training, and it seemed like it was a big "us vs. them" kind of thing. I didn't think that's where the discussion was headed. I also don't know of any IDPA instructors who teach students to get on the trigger so early. I have seen Gunsite instructors teach that, however.

So I emailed Ron Avery and asked him about it. Here's what he had to say:

"There was NO instruction to touch the trigger when the gun cleared the holster.
Quite the opposite. Before doing the video blog, both Travis and I went over the safety aspects of the draw with Cory with special attention to when the trigger finger contacts the trigger.
During filming, Cory was not trusting what he was seeing and was taking longer than he needed to finish the trigger press once the gun was on target. He did not want to miss the black line or look foolish in front of us.
Touching the trigger early does not increase speed.
I did not try for greater speed with Cory as I did not want him to start creeping to the trigger as he began to do. He was advised by me on that error after the video.
It is not the "Ron Avery draw" by the way, it is merely a way of explaining certain aspects of drawing. There are several ways of drawing.
The trouble with blogging is that all aspects of instruction do not make it to the edited video and the blogger must take responsibility for the content as I do not control editing or publishing of private bloggers.
Ultimately, the blogger must put safety ahead of looking good, admit errors and make sure safety issues are addressed.
Travis and I will be doing another video on the draw with the safety aspects in mind to address those concerns.
Please post this where you need to. Hope this clears up some misconceptions." -Ron Avery

Hopefully that puts the issue to bed regarding whether Cory was instructed to use unsafe gun handling.

I also did some searching and found this video of BJ Norris drawing during a blazing fast steel challenge run. As I'm sure most know, Steel Challenge in large part about draw speed. Everyone who competes in it has a similar "index" draw, probably because they are looking for a speed edge. What was interesting to me about this was how late he gets his finger on the trigger. I guess it's like Mr. Avery said, "touching the trigger early does not increase speed."

[Mr_White]

Seems like we have three questions/issues going on here:

1) Do we draw in the straightest line (index draw) or get the sights in the eye line quicker with the inverted J (or whatever we are calling it now)?

2) Do we break the shot at the extension of the press out or get the pistol out as quickly as possible, refining the sight picture if necessary at extension?

3) When do we put the finger on the trigger and how does that relate to following rule 2, never muzzling anything you aren't willing to shoot?

Do I have the questions right or is there something I missed?

I think those are most of the central questions in this. I would also add for consideration the speed of movement of the gun through its path to its final position, in addition to the shape of the path itself.

[ford.304]

So, caleb, I know you switched from a press out style to an index draw specifically on the recommendation of Mr. Norris. Just how much was the time difference?

[joshs]

I guess it's like Mr. Avery said, "touching the trigger early does not increase speed."

Do you think that is true of guns with longer and heavier triggers?