Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke

[beltjones]

I think his biggest reduction in time came from his increased hand speed. Sometimes having an instructor just tell you to go faster can be very useful. His old "technique" also had lots of problems that aren't representative of a good inverted L/J draw.

He has lots of problems. No argument there.

But still, loads of classes with tactical dudes (you can count them on his website - there are a lot) left him with that dreadful draw. Just a few minutes with good instruction made his technique better. That much is clear.

[jlw]

I don't think it's meant to be a jab.

Also, when it comes to fighting is there a one-size-fits-all technique that works no matter what? Or do skilled fighters develop an arsenal of techniques to deploy depending on the circumstances?

Dang. There we go with metaphors that don't have anything to do with shooting, again.

I didn't say anything about a jab. I was referencing shooting from a higher position with the muzzle already oriented toward the threat. By block, if a shooter is coming in an upward arc toward a threat, it is easier for a close threat to block/disrupt the upward arc than it is a muzzle that is already pointing towards them.

[TCinVA]

Are you of the opinion that his old technique would be faster than his new technique at twice the distance and half the target size?

Nobody is really arguing that his "old" technique was great. There's lots of room for improvement there.

Most classes are structured around getting someone to perform the draw without putting holes in themselves or in others. Being deliberate when you're a beginner is a pretty good idea...or when you're trying out new equipment, etc. That way you dont blow a hole in yourself. One should strive to get better, and taking a bunch of classes doesn't necessarily produce that result.

One on one coaching from a highly skilled shooter...or investing in a video camera and a timer...often does. Lots of people don't actually practice what they learn in class or don't have critical eyes watching their practice time. A lot of benefit is lost that way.

[YVK]

Just a few minutes with good instruction made his technique better. That much is clear.

I have very little interest in this debate, but I think it is clear as mud that his technique got better.
If you like Avery's form and you equate student's adoption of Avery's draw motion as an improvement, then I have no argument.
The time improvement in this particular case, as depicted on video, tells me little. First of, Josh already mentioned a possibility of Hawthorne effect. Second, one often starts reacting faster to signal after multiple reps; we'd need a really slow-mo camera to tease it out. Third, where I personally see the difference is in shortening of his time from full extension to breaking a shot. That could possibly be because his new and improved technique lets him see the sight faster. It is also possible he is factually point shooting now, having done multiple reps at same distance on same target and thus figuring out where to throw the gun to get a hit.

[TCinVA]

Yup...but if all he got from that lesson is to just move faster (which can be a hard lesson to drill into someone's head) then he learned something useful. Kinesthetic skills are not learned fully on the spot. It takes time for all the necessary parts to learn their job...hence Mr. Avery's statement about how many millions of draws he's done.

[Desmond82]

I have very little interest in this debate, but I think it is clear as mud that his technique got better.
If you like Avery's form and you equate student's adoption of Avery's draw motion as an improvement, then I have no argument.
The time improvement in this particular case, as depicted on video, tells me little. First of, Josh already mentioned a possibility of Hawthorne effect. Second, one often starts reacting faster to signal after multiple reps; we'd need a really slow-mo camera to tease it out. Third, where I personally see the difference is in shortening of his time from full extension to breaking a shot. That could possibly be because his new and improved technique lets him see the sight faster. It is also possible he is factually point shooting now, having done multiple reps at same distance on same target and thus figuring out where to throw the gun to get a hit.

Actually as of today reflected on this draw stroke training and then demonstrates it from strong side owb and then concealed aiwb

http://youtu.be/NZie5VrhCkc

[ToddG]

re: cherry-picking a photo

I didn't. Watch all the draws in that video in slow motion. You'll see a pretty consistent change in the student's technique viz-a-vis trigger contact. As he was being pushed to go faster and move his gun in a straight line from the holster he started getting his finger on the trigger earlier than I would like to see. It wasn't corrected by Avery and if you watch his draws he does it, too, so presumably he is comfortable with it. So are some other instructors. To each his own. But let's not pretend it was just an accidental one time thing.

re: slowing the extension for low% shots

Candidly, the only people who seem to get wrapped around the axle on this are people who haven't been exposed to the technique except online, and usually by people who've already made up their minds to dislike the technique altogether. It seems like you have this impression of people taking half an hour to go from close in to full extension along the eye line. That's not the case. Since you seem ok with adding time to your draw by pausing at extension for low% shots, I'm not sure why adding time by slowing the extension instead is so mind warping.

[YVK]

Actually as of today reflected on this draw stroke training and then demonstrates it from strong side owb and then concealed aiwb

http://youtu.be/NZie5VrhCkc

I am going to excuse myself from watching any more of those videos, but if I understood you correctly in that he verified his improvements without instructor present and from cold or near cold, then I'd say good for him. Hopefully, he'd be smart to double check this on targets of various sizes and distances to, and then soldier on.

As far as trigger finger is concerned, it is a self-correcting issue.

[Sal Picante]

BTW - some of you may know that the Singe Stack Nationals was this past week - Robbie won it again.

Ron Avery was 14th... Pretty respectable finish...

Place Name USPSA Comp # Class PF Lady Mil Law Age Match Pts Match %
1 Rob Leatham L684 330 GM Major 1094.5795 100.000%
2 Dave Sevigny TY42164 86 GM Minor 1058.5170 96.705%
3 Shannon Smith TY38969 107 M Major 1054.3065 96.321%
4 Max Michel TY26022 132 M Major 1037.7662 94.810%
5 Nils Jonasson A48138 307 GM Major 1009.0049 92.182%
6 Phil Strader RD5 54 GM Major 1006.0070 91.908%
7 Todd Jarrett L2458 67 GM Major 975.0682 89.082%
8 Emanuel Bragg L2476 186 M Major 972.8910 88.883%
9 Craig Underdown L3216 182 M Major 947.7120 86.582%
10 Michael Seeklander TY30288 57 M Major 941.4773 86.013%
11 Greg Martin A53974 360 M Major 938.8777 85.775%
12 Keith Dilworth L3294 317 M Major 936.7642 85.582%
13 Corey Estill A57351 74 GM Major 925.6745 84.569%
14 Ron Avery L2747 305 U Major Senior 921.9364 84.227%

[dbateman]

One question that I haven't really seen answered.

To the guy's saying I train one draw and thats all I need, thats all well and good standing on a flat range blasting steel.

What about if I need to draw to an elevated target say up a flight of stairs or around a corner, around a corner down a flight of stairs or wile driving then I need to get my gun around the wheel and get myself out of the car because if I'm drawing from a car it's because I can't get away.

Or I could be on the ground.

I just feel that you should work on a few different techniques sure you will have a bit more information in your brain but you will favour one over the others. It's a bit like learning to shoot weak hand only or running you gun with one hand hope you never need to know how but better to learn the skill before the gun fight.

As far as the finger on the trigger I agree I'm not a fan of that at all I myself don't put my finger on the trigger till I have an acceptable sight picture
in fact it's my index finger that I use to index my pistol. There is one exception to that as someone else stated if I have decided to shoot.