Beretta 92 FS Compact (and general Beretta love lately)

[GardoneVT]

I keep waffling about a 92. I got a chance to shoot someone's 92FS the other day at the range. It didn't scream my name like my first P30 did. Shot pretty soft with my usual plinking ammo but I only put 14 rounds down the tube. Grip didn't speak to me either, but I'm still drawn to them anyways. I didn't HATE the gun, but I didn't LOVE it either at first blush. I have my eye on a 92G and if the price is right I just might pull the trigger.

It's only money after all

The following might alter your view on them.

The good thing about the 92FS, from my perch, is that it handles +P and +P+ rounds like a champ. One of the dilemmas with 9mm pistols is that the typical carry ammo has more recoil then the standard target stuff, which can result in drastically different recoil feel when shooting the "hot stuff". This morning I shot five rounds of Buffalo Bore +P+ after finishing some FAST drills, and the recoil impulse is hardly different from the 115gr Federal I was shooting beforehand.

As to the "G" mode, there's a gunsmith in Pennsylvania who converts the standard 92FS'. I personally won't do that, based on advice from an SME on self-defense incidents I consulted who mentioned that it could be interpeted as negligence by plaintiffs' council in civil court- "GardoneVT willfully deactivated a safety" type nonsense. Since my Beretta is a defensive gun, that mod's a no go. You may not have such a concern about that if its a range toy/competition gun only.

[hufnagel]

I personally wasn't considering the Beretta as a defensive or carry gun... I have 4 HK's for that job.

I hear you on the defensive usage vs. modified problem. It's part of the reason I haven't converted any of mine to LEM v1 yet... well that and getting parts is insanely difficult.
I'm looking at the Beretta more as a fun-to-shoot/semi-heirloom/something-different type of addition to my collection. If it's a Balloon Goes Up type of moment i'm grabbing the HKs and the bags with mags in them, not the Beretta.

As for the plinking vs. defensive ammo feels... I've found and spec'ed a couple different rounds that all feel and POI close enough that I'm confident in my ability to use the Important Stuff if the time ever came. (for reference... P9HST1, AE9AP, CCI 5201.)

[ToddG]

Just curious, figured I'd ask the experts. I've installed a D spring, and have the skeletonized hammer on hand...I just wonder if I'm losing anything in reliability/gaining anything in performance compared to the stock 92FS hammer, or if it's mostly just a cosmetic upgrade. I'll be shooting a good amount of NATO M882. Thanks!

The E2 hammer was specifically designed to have the same mass as the DAO ("D") hammer and thus is every bit as reliable as a standard DAO 90-series pistol (same hammer mass, same hammer spring).

The original Elite hammer (aka E1) had a lighter hammer that did cause reliability issues, especially when folks ran Cougar F springs instead of the 92D hammer spring.

[ToddG]

As for the "converting F to G" thing and liability, balderdash. The G is a factory configuration used by LE and military personnel around the world and used in the company's top tier competition guns. I carried G's for about four years. You're more likely to have trouble shooting weird off-brand "+p+" ammunition and having a lawyer claim that the stuff cops carry isn't "deadly enough for you." (and I wouldn't worry about that overmuch, either)

[GardoneVT]

As for the "converting F to G" thing and liability, balderdash. The G is a factory configuration used by LE and military personnel around the world and used in the company's top tier competition guns. I carried G's for about four years. You're more likely to have trouble shooting weird off-brand "+p+" ammunition and having a lawyer claim that the stuff cops carry isn't "deadly enough for you." (and I wouldn't worry about that overmuch, either)

The advice I received on this matter was from an SME with years of legal experience on self defense issues.He made the additional point that since the weapon still says "92FS " on the slide, if I sold the weapon some goober might flip the deactivated safety, pull a stoopid, and then come after me for liability.I'm not selling the piece so the latter issue isn't my concern,but I do have family near Chicago and in the event of a problem I do need to keep legalities in mind.

If you want to know who I asked, PM me.

[ToddG]

The advice I received on this matter was from an SME with years of legal experience on self defense issues.

I remember when "SMEs with years of yadda" decried that my first folding knife, the Advanced Folding Combat Knife, had a name that would cause me to go blind in court or something. There are a million shades of liability & exposure. You want to worry about worst-case of the worst cases, knock yourself out. Personally, if I wanted a Beretta and couldn't find a "G" I'd very seriously consider getting an F converted and the only reservations I'd have would be reliability and durability, not liability.

He made the additional point that since the weapon still says "92FS " on the slide, if I sold the weapon some goober might flip the deactivated safety, pull a stoopid, and then come after me for liability.

This one I agree with. It's why Beretta only offered "G" models to the commercial market when they were special (and different looking) from the regular M9/92FS. I still think it's paranoid but it's far closer to reality than the other issue.

[YVK]

I am not as much interested in who that dude is or how many years he did it, but what is his actual case load, like case number list. There is a number of "legal SME" names in circulation, but when I tried to find actual cases to read through, I always fell short.

To the date, nobody who has brought up "don't modify factory safeties" argument, any gun model (go read 1911forum about pinned grip safeties), has been able to provide a single actual case example, criminal or civil, where altered safety made a difference in case outcome of otherwise justifiable use of lethal force. I mean, I followed up these discussions for almost a decade now, and have not seen ONE factual case quote.

Back to Beretta. I've got 1600 rounds through my Elite 2 in last 2 months, plus at least same amount of dry fire. Shot 2 matches. DA shot still kicks my ass under time pressure if target is anything but easy. Shooting moving targets in DA on timer is just a pain. Short reach trigger is a huge save for me. I still can't clear a Wall Drill in DA mode one handed with a regular trigger, but I can do it consistently with SRT. The gun is stupidly accurate and soft shooting. The sights are the biggest disappointment to me.

[Moshjath]

Thanks Todd, and others. I'll give the elite hammer a try. I'd prefer a G model, but I'm issued an M9 at work, and am finally deciding to use the same gun as my work gun in my off duty time. I feel pretty comfortable with it, I shot an M9 for ~4 years on USMA's CWT, so I'm not new to it.

[GardoneVT]

YVK, the problem IMO isn't criminal court but civil court.

Civil tort has much lower standards of proof then criminal, which is why people routinely sue each other over BS.Yet, even a BS civil case brought against me by the perp or his family still requires that I incur an expense to defend myself.

Now, in my neck of the woods (South Dakota) such a BS suit ain't gonna happen, period.Yet I have family in Chicago, which is a whole 'nother story.The Windy City jury pool isn't by nature gun friendly , and I'd rather train around the manual safety then have to use a different weapon entirely for home defense when I visit family. That's a personal determination, and if I knew I'd never visit Illinois ever again I'd gladly mod my carry gun.

[LSP972]

The advice I received on this matter was from an SME with years of legal experience on self defense issues.

He probably believes what he's telling you, too. It still doesn't make it true.

Did he also 'splain to you exactly how this information would come to light in the first place? No? Then I will.

When your pistol is seized by the cops, it will go to a crime lab somewhere to be examined. Unless the submitting agency specifically asks for a more detailed examination, the pistol will be test-fired to produce reference bullets and cartridge cases and to see if it works properly. The technician will NOT be looking for any modifications unless he has a reason to. Granted some technicians are "gun guys" and will notice things... for instance, I felt something "off" on a G34 trigger one day that had come in for test firing, tore it down, and found one of those retarded skimmer triggers.

And here's the real news flash about that... this pistol was used by a cop to wrongfully kill (via negligent discharge, nothing intentional; a classic flex/reflex response for those of you who know what that is) a miscreant, and our report clearly stated that the pistol had a user-modified after market trigger. Now... if you believe some of these "subject matter experts", you would think that a whole platoon of slavering attorneys would be all over this one like white on rice. IT DID NOT BECOME AN ISSUE. As far as I can tell (and I've followed this one, because I know the deputy involved), the fact that the pistol had a non-factory, user-modified trigger didn't even come up on either side of the table.

You can believe who you choose... but there it is.

.

P.S.: I believe the fellow said that the pistol he was looking at was a factory 92G... so this whole discussion is moot, I reckon.

.