Glock Trigger Press

[Surf]

Sorry guys haven't been around much lately as I am extremely busy with my day job. Myself and two of my training staff have been hijacked to help "bail out" certain individuals with piss poor planning, so I am seeing forty new students per week with two, 2 day classes per week. This will continue for the next 6 months or so, until I get into my standard 10 week course. These courses are Glock related and I am seeing it all.

The Glock in particular has its own unique "personality" when it comes to shooting it. Those with the biggest issues seem to be shooters with a lot or ingrained training on another pistol type. The Glock grip angle, hump on the backstrap and the curved face of the hinged type of trigger can create a myriad of issues, even in experienced shooters. The biggest issue is that right handers tend to shoot left and / or low left with the Glock. This is EXTREMELY common. And of course vise versa for lefties. It takes a very good instructor to be able to identify the exact issue and give the correct fix for the problem. There are what I consider "band aid" fixes for the problems but a true fix is more ideal.

What is seen in the Haley / Avery video's has been around for a long long time as mentioned by Ron and they are still valid to this day. I have been using similar concepts to achieve the same goals for many many years. You are now starting to see some of that information hitting youtube by some solid trainers. I tend to combine the concept of the Tigerstripe drill described by Avery but I perform it as a variation of a one hole drill in conjunctions with a cadence drill, in order to get the shooter working on the correct grip so the pistol tracks only up and down while training the eye to track the sight movement. The one hole also concept combined in this drill also works on minimizing muzzle lift for quick follow ups. I basically combine several drills seen on youtube by Avery, or the cadence I saw done by Defoor into one master drill of my own. It would have made for a good youtube video.

Of course there are tons of drills and a TON of information that was never covered in any of my youtube video's. What I had posted was obviously only the tip of the proverbial iceberg and the rabbit hole runs very deep, if you are inclined to get deep into the how's and why's of things. Avery and Haley are calling it the science and biomechanics of shooting, which is not wrong, just something that some of us have been doing for many many years but may have never really attempted to coin any terms to describe what is happening. I can actually appreciate the direction that many of the latest "top" trainers are headed and perhaps just validates the concepts that I have been fighting over for many years when they were not so "mainstream" as they are today.

As for the youtube thing, or online content in general, it was getting a bit overwhelming from the response and inquiry which was 99% positive but I found myself unable to give the inquiry the attention I wished I could. It almost felt like a full time thing and I never monetized or used it to advertise a business but was for the pure desire to contribute to the general shooting community however with a growing family and full time commitments it was getting harder to justify. I will also add that many entities are taking issue with social media content so that was always a consideration. I will also note, that many of the more current youtube firearms channels were some of my early subscribers. I know that mimicking is supposed to be flattering, but I was more than a bit disappointed when I put out a video and another youtuber copied the video, but obviously did not truly understand the concept. This was frustrating as they were putting out incorrect information as if it was correct. Unfortunately some have gone on to grow into large channels, blogs, business etc and at least I am no longer providing information that they bastardize.

[alpine44]

I bought a used G23 the other day that had a guide rod laser installed and observed a persistent "jerk" of the laser dot during my WHO/SHO dry fire practice. No matter how much or little finger I had in the trigger, how carefully I worked the trigger, that little jerk was always there when the striker released. To rule out the guide rod laser as the culprit, I changed to a rail mounted laser and observed the same jump upon striker release.

I then mounted the laser on my P229 and found that it is much easier for me to pull a clean DA shot with the SIG than it is with the G19/23 using WHO/SHO. That coincides with my intuitive choice to prefer the SIG when we shoot the Texas Star single handed or do similar drills.

I also asked several friends to show me a clean WHO/SHO trigger pull with a G19/23 an nobody could avoid the small jump of the laser dot upon release of the striker.

My suspicion is that the entire frame of the Glock flexes during trigger prep and when that tension is released the gun is going to move no matter what your trigger finger did or does.

This problem goes away if I vise-grip the Glock between both paws and then there is little difference between the G19/23 and the P229 when trying to ring steel at 100 or 200 yards. Yes, the SIG SA trigger is much nicer but if I take my time with the gritty Glock (stock) trigger the long range hit ratio is about the same.

Does anyone have a metal-framed Glock to run a comparison and see where the difficulty with WHO/SHO shooting really comes from.

[JHC]

Sorry guys haven't been around much lately as I am extremely busy with my day job. Myself and two of my training staff have been hijacked to help "bail out" certain individuals with piss poor planning, so I am seeing forty new students per week with two, 2 day classes per week. This will continue for the next 6 months or so, until I get into my standard 10 week course. These courses are Glock related and I am seeing it all.

The Glock in particular has its own unique "personality" when it comes to shooting it. Those with the biggest issues seem to be shooters with a lot or ingrained training on another pistol type. The Glock grip angle, hump on the backstrap and the curved face of the hinged type of trigger can create a myriad of issues, even in experienced shooters. The biggest issue is that right handers tend to shoot left and / or low left with the Glock. This is EXTREMELY common. And of course vise versa for lefties. It takes a very good instructor to be able to identify the exact issue and give the correct fix for the problem. There are what I consider "band aid" fixes for the problems but a true fix is more ideal.

What is seen in the Haley / Avery video's has been around for a long long time as mentioned by Ron and they are still valid to this day. I have been using similar concepts to achieve the same goals for many many years. You are now starting to see some of that information hitting youtube by some solid trainers. I tend to combine the concept of the Tigerstripe drill described by Avery but I perform it as a variation of a one hole drill in conjunctions with a cadence drill, in order to get the shooter working on the correct grip so the pistol tracks only up and down while training the eye to track the sight movement. The one hole also concept combined in this drill also works on minimizing muzzle lift for quick follow ups. I basically combine several drills seen on youtube by Avery, or the cadence I saw done by Defoor into one master drill of my own. It would have made for a good youtube video.

Of course there are tons of drills and a TON of information that was never covered in any of my youtube video's. What I had posted was obviously only the tip of the proverbial iceberg and the rabbit hole runs very deep, if you are inclined to get deep into the how's and why's of things. Avery and Haley are calling it the science and biomechanics of shooting, which is not wrong, just something that some of us have been doing for many many years but may have never really attempted to coin any terms to describe what is happening. I can actually appreciate the direction that many of the latest "top" trainers are headed and perhaps just validates the concepts that I have been fighting over for many years when they were not so "mainstream" as they are today.

As for the youtube thing, or online content in general, it was getting a bit overwhelming from the response and inquiry which was 99% positive but I found myself unable to give the inquiry the attention I wished I could. It almost felt like a full time thing and I never monetized or used it to advertise a business but was for the pure desire to contribute to the general shooting community however with a growing family and full time commitments it was getting harder to justify. I will also add that many entities are taking issue with social media content so that was always a consideration. I will also note, that many of the more current youtube firearms channels were some of my early subscribers. I know that mimicking is supposed to be flattering, but I was more than a bit disappointed when I put out a video and another youtuber copied the video, but obviously did not truly understand the concept. This was frustrating as they were putting out incorrect information as if it was correct. Unfortunately some have gone on to grow into large channels, blogs, business etc and at least I am no longer providing information that they bastardize.

Thanks. You can't work for a salary forever. We'll be waiting.

[psalms144.1]

I bought a used G23 the other day that had a guide rod laser installed and observed a persistent "jerk" of the laser dot during my WHO/SHO dry fire practice. No matter how much or little finger I had in the trigger, how carefully I worked the trigger, that little jerk was always there when the striker released. To rule out the guide rod laser as the culprit, I changed to a rail mounted laser and observed the same jump upon striker release.

I then mounted the laser on my P229 and found that it is much easier for me to pull a clean DA shot with the SIG than it is with the G19/23 using WHO/SHO. That coincides with my intuitive choice to prefer the SIG when we shoot the Texas Star single handed or do similar drills.

I also asked several friends to show me a clean WHO/SHO trigger pull with a G19/23 an nobody could avoid the small jump of the laser dot upon release of the striker.

My suspicion is that the entire frame of the Glock flexes during trigger prep and when that tension is released the gun is going to move no matter what your trigger finger did or does.

I'm not sure about frame flex, but I can tell you that I have PRECISELY the same issue WH/SHO with Glocks. I'm inclined to think it's the force of the striker hitting the back of the breach face combined with the trigger hitting the frame in overtravel. These are 20 ounce (unloaded) pistols, with trigger pulls that are in the 6#ish range (depending on configuration). Add to that the fact that Glock has a "hard break" in the trigger that makes smoothly pressing through the pressure more difficult, and you have a recipe for sight movement.

Oddly, after having tried for the last many moons to find the "right" amount of finger to put on the trigger with my G19, I've discovered that if I go back to my old standard of center of the pad of the tip of my finger, and concentrate on pressing my finger FLAT and straight back, my left-itis has nearly disappeared.

Now if I can just get my G19 to like the KKM barrel I bought for it (shoots straight, reliability is not so great)...

Regards,

Kevin

[JHC]

I bought a used G23 the other day that had a guide rod laser installed and observed a persistent "jerk" of the laser dot during my WHO/SHO dry fire practice. No matter how much or little finger I had in the trigger, how carefully I worked the trigger, that little jerk was always there when the striker released. To rule out the guide rod laser as the culprit, I changed to a rail mounted laser and observed the same jump upon striker release.

I then mounted the laser on my P229 and found that it is much easier for me to pull a clean DA shot with the SIG than it is with the G19/23 using WHO/SHO. That coincides with my intuitive choice to prefer the SIG when we shoot the Texas Star single handed or do similar drills.

I also asked several friends to show me a clean WHO/SHO trigger pull with a G19/23 an nobody could avoid the small jump of the laser dot upon release of the striker.

My suspicion is that the entire frame of the Glock flexes during trigger prep and when that tension is released the gun is going to move no matter what your trigger finger did or does.

This problem goes away if I vise-grip the Glock between both paws and then there is little difference between the G19/23 and the P229 when trying to ring steel at 100 or 200 yards. Yes, the SIG SA trigger is much nicer but if I take my time with the gritty Glock (stock) trigger the long range hit ratio is about the same.

Does anyone have a metal-framed Glock to run a comparison and see where the difficulty with WHO/SHO shooting really comes from.

I witnessed some pretty good SHO shooting at 25 yards recently so if movement is inherent in the design (frame) it must be manageable with the right press. https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/13722101653/

[luckyman]

My suspicion is that the entire frame of the Glock flexes during trigger prep and when that tension is released the gun is going to move no matter what your trigger finger did or does.

After a lot of dry fire experimentation, I eventually got this to go away. Note I've put in a fulcrum "duty" trigger; I like the flat aluminum trigger at lot better than the stock Glock 19 trigger.

I'm sure all this is very personal, but let me try to describe what worked for me:
What I found is it is very important for me to feel the blade of the trigger safety on the most sensitive part of my finger, which lies a shade more than 1/4" away from my fingernail. Then I almost feel like I am pushing that depressed safety blade just a tiny tiny bit towards my left shoulder, instead of absolutely straight back. I'm sure that is not what is physically occurring, but that is what it feels like. In addition, it feels like I'm pressing maybe just a tiny bit up towards the boreline. When I do this I get absolutely no movement even with a light single handed grip. I practice this only with one-hand holds to highlight any issues. I actually got this working first with my off hand; it took about 4 days of fiddling before I figured out how to imagine the feel of a correct pull and transfer it over to my right hand. To my ears the pistol even sounds a little different when I have the correct trigger press.

This has had the benefit of really helping my fast trigger pulls. I've tried an exercise where I press the trigger as quickly as possible when the timer goes off to test my reaction speed. If I'm aiming carefully at a 2" target at 5 yards before I initiate the timer, I now get pretty much the same result as if I'm pressing slowly back with no timer involved. Mind you, I have yet to translate this into the same result in "real" shooting :-)

[HCM]

Oddly, after having tried for the last many moons to find the "right" amount of finger to put on the trigger with my G19, I've discovered that if I go back to my old standard of center of the pad of the tip of my finger, and concentrate on pressing my finger FLAT and straight back, my left-itis has nearly disappeared.

First, let me say this has been a very useful thread and SURF is spot on regarding the Glock having its own unique "personality" when it comes to shooting it.

I have XXL hands. For myself, I find more trigger finger, using the joint like on a DA revolver, rather than the pad of the finger, helps me pull straight back / flat and avoid "leftitis" with the Glock. I'm attributing this a couple of things. One is the curved face of the trigger and/or the trigger safety causing a "teeter totter" effect, resulting in uneven pressure across the face of the trigger when using the pad of my finger. Another is adding more trigger finger shifts my grip a bit further forward/ to the right vs the gun being centered in the web of my hand like a conventional grip. I've noticed when I hold the gun this way, the "meat" on the heel of my hand is also further forward / to the right rather than up on the "the hump" on the backstrap. This seems to help me with the grip angle and the pinky issues JHC has mentioned. I am one of those who intially shot the Glock 26 as well as or better than a 17 so there may be something to the pinky / backstrap hump connection.

[farscott]

I suffer from this malady with the Glock, especially with the Glock 19. The "light bulb" moment that it is not just me was watching a YouTube video of Jerry Miculek shooting/reviewing the Glock 41. He was pulling shots left and commenting on the fact that he was not gripping the pistol properly as he had very little Glock trigger time.

I think my personal issue is that as I squeeze the trigger, I also am applying more pressure to the grip as the rest of my fingers also contract. This may be due to how the 3rd generation grip grooves force my fingers to sit on the front strap.

[JHC]

The Avery "stripe" video posted earlier is very good and I've never seen that training drill before. We worked that drill last weekend and it was enlightening. I saw the difference that opposite pressure from the strong had made when the speed picked up. I've never heard of such a technique before so that's always fun. Ingraining that to the subconscious level may be another thing.

[Guinnessman]

I am going to go watch the videos again, and work on some dry fire right now since I had a bad case of snatching the trigger on my P30 yesterday. I never thought a 10/10/10 drill could be so humbling. It was by far my worst run on that drill, ever!