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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Riehl View Post
    There are two gun control advocates: one being a control driven elite, the other being a fear driven "low information" crowd. How do we address the latter? The former is an entirely different group that is outside the discussion here.

    The latter crowd, however childlike in nature they are, might just be looking for something to blame other than the man because admitting it was the man means several things. One that evil exists. Two that we will need to actually grow up and take responsibility for our actions, safety, and future. And for many, that's a scary thought.
    That seems entirely too reductionist and dismissive to me. I know a number of people who understand that the world is an inherently unsafe place and support the individual right to keep and bear arms conceptually who still look at recent events and think that banning "assault weapons" might just be a reasonable step. Those people don't understand why anybody who isn't in a position of authority would need a weapon "that can shoot so many bullets so fast" and can't help but think that reducing the number of those weapons that are available would make a difference. Those people are not part of a control-driven elite and they're not child-like in nature. They are responsible, adult, well-intentioned people whose hearts are broken by events such as Newtown and they want to make a difference. They think that banning "assault weapons" is taking responsibility and that clinging to them is irrational. Those are the people you need to reach, and you can't do it if you don't start from a place of mutual respect.

  2. #12
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    The least anti-gun article I've seen so far on a major news outlet.

    http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news...n-america?lite

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    Our presentation was stomping them into a mudhole in the popular culture, in the courts, in the legislatures, and one high profile shooting and my team is suddenly ready to fold like a cheap newspaper? For Vishnu's sake, nut up, man!
    Haha! Vishnu

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    That seems entirely too reductionist and dismissive to me. I know a number of people who understand that the world is an inherently unsafe place and support the individual right to keep and bear arms conceptually who still look at recent events and think that banning "assault weapons" might just be a reasonable step. Those people don't understand why anybody who isn't in a position of authority would need a weapon "that can shoot so many bullets so fast" and can't help but think that reducing the number of those weapons that are available would make a difference. Those people are not part of a control-driven elite and they're not child-like in nature. They are responsible, adult, well-intentioned people whose hearts are broken by events such as Newtown and they want to make a difference. They think that banning "assault weapons" is taking responsibility and that clinging to them is irrational. Those are the people you need to reach, and you can't do it if you don't start from a place of mutual respect.
    I agree with this. Erik has hit the nail on the head here. I suppose you could include these well-intentioned, wrong, people in the "childlike" category for their refusal to face facts, but, this description very clearly describes the group of people that need to be "won over".

    Those would would sacrifice a bit of essential Liberty to gain some (perceived) temporary safety. (B. Franklin, paraphrased)
    Last edited by RoyGBiv; 12-18-2012 at 08:22 AM.
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual...Thomas Jefferson

  5. #15
    I don't believe we're doing a great job arguing this. The opposing audience is too heterogeneous and I think we as a group fail to understand that. There is no point in arguing with those whose agenda is control in general. As in any political debate, the capture audience are "the moderates". In this case, those are the people who realize this is a mental issue, who agree that restrictive laws won't reduce incidence of these events, who don't support all-out firearms prohibition, but do want hi caps and ARs go away because of a higher casualty rate. This is a difficult argument to engage into because it is true, and I haven't seen much of convincing rhetoric on our side. Almost all I've seen is preaching to a choir.

    p.s. seems like Erik has said pretty much the same while I was typing.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    That seems entirely too reductionist and dismissive to me. I know a number of people who understand that the world is an inherently unsafe place and support the individual right to keep and bear arms conceptually who still look at recent events and think that banning "assault weapons" might just be a reasonable step. Those people don't understand why anybody who isn't in a position of authority would need a weapon "that can shoot so many bullets so fast" and can't help but think that reducing the number of those weapons that are available would make a difference. Those people are not part of a control-driven elite and they're not child-like in nature. They are responsible, adult, well-intentioned people whose hearts are broken by events such as Newtown and they want to make a difference. They think that banning "assault weapons" is taking responsibility and that clinging to them is irrational. Those are the people you need to reach, and you can't do it if you don't start from a place of mutual respect.
    This. A hundred times this.

    A meme that is often tossed around on gun blogs mocks the occasional political editorial in the coastal media thusly: "Why won't you stupid cousin-humping rednecks vote for us?"

    The flip side is often apparent on our side, however: "Why won't you childish emotional communist hippies listen to my logical arguments?"

    May I quote your post in its entirety on my blog, with link and attribution?

  7. #17
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    IMHO one approach to address the "low information" crowd in the context discussed here is perhaps being more vocal about the need to protect "our children" by making schools safer using all tools available, e,g., arming and training principals/senior personnel, allowing CHL holders to carry, arguing that hardly anyone would dare to assault a police station unless it would be a "gun free zone", etc.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Those people don't understand why anybody who isn't in a position of authority would need a weapon "that can shoot so many bullets so fast" and can't help but think that reducing the number of those weapons that are available would make a difference.
    ...then they're responding emotionally without even understanding the "facts" that are being bandied about.

    I don't doubt that they would bristle at the idea that they're reacting like an uninformed doofus, but that's exactly what they're doing.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    ...then they're responding emotionally without even understanding the "facts" that are being bandied about.

    I don't doubt that they would bristle at the idea that they're reacting like an uninformed doofus, but that's exactly what they're doing.
    ...and no Republican ever does that. They're coldly rational about this stuff. Like Mike Huckabee.


    People react like uninformed doofii all the time; it's what humans do. The objective is to inform them, and you can't if you start the lecture with "Listen, ignoramus..."

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    That seems entirely too reductionist and dismissive to me. I know a number of people who understand that the world is an inherently unsafe place and support the individual right to keep and bear arms conceptually who still look at recent events and think that banning "assault weapons" might just be a reasonable step. Those people don't understand why anybody who isn't in a position of authority would need a weapon "that can shoot so many bullets so fast" and can't help but think that reducing the number of those weapons that are available would make a difference. Those people are not part of a control-driven elite and they're not child-like in nature. They are responsible, adult, well-intentioned people whose hearts are broken by events such as Newtown and they want to make a difference. They think that banning "assault weapons" is taking responsibility and that clinging to them is irrational. Those are the people you need to reach, and you can't do it if you don't start from a place of mutual respect.
    I don't mean to sound bad here, but that is the definition of child like logic in my eyes.

    They think that will make a difference. Ok - ban all firearms everywhere in the world. What would have happened if he walked in with a case of cheap glass bottles full of gas w/ rags sticking out? Or a chain saw. Or an axe. Or a knife. Or any number of other implements I can think of.

    The question I'm asking: Is there a better way to educate the people described above so that a knee jerk "maybe an AWB" is not their response. It will never be possible to stop the "won't someone think of the children gun ban" megaphone chant.

    Why not wait a month and have the NRA start a "truth about guns" campaign? Prime time adds w/ statistics? Interviews with people who were saved by being armed?

    ETA: How many school shootings have the Israelis had in the last decade? Or two?
    Disclaimer: I am actively working in the firearms industry. I am developing and marketing a finish/coating product line.
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