Martial Arts Training

[KravPirate]

I have read the previous posts and figured it was a good time to chime in. I coach for a KM program that extends globally. Notice I stated "coach" and not "instructor". Most importantly, I am a student of KM and self defense. I have been training in KM roughly 8 years. Keep in mind, this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of my fellow coaches but I am sure if they were on this board they would tend to agree. First, if any instructor tells you that KM is the answer for everything, find another school. KM is a fierce self defense program if taught properly and includes supplemental training. I will not get into details of KM but will state a couple of things about KM. KM teaches two very imperative skills as a whole as it relates to surviving an attack; 1) quick and devastating techniques that allow you to inflict as much damage as quickly as possible when confronted by an attacker and 2) an aggressive mindset to not stop until you have neutralized the threat or have incapacitated an attacker to give you enough time to create safe distance and retreat. KM is not designed for agreed upon mutual engagements although it doesn't hurt if you do find yourself in a mutual fight (i.e., fights agreed upon in a controlled environment).

What lots of KM programs ignore is the supplemental aspect. Supplemental training should include clinch work, ground work and boxing/kickboxing techniques. All of these skills should be combined and tested in a controlled sparring session. There is no better way to test your skills than to fight with folks at various skill levels. Most would be surprised at what beginners can do when sparring if they have the aggressive mindset. The aggressive mindset is one of the toughest skills to gain. Also, training should be repetitive. One thing I tell students is that you do not know KM unless you can defend under stress. Techniques will fail but drilling techniques over and over under stress will minimize the possibilities of techniques failing. If a technique fails, don't stop, keep going, try something else. Nothing is worse than stopping in the middle of an attack. I could go on and on but I will leave it there.

Train Hard!

[BaiHu]

Excellent post KravPirate.

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[SweetScienceOfShooting]

I understand your point of view and Krav Maga has its place much like MCMAP, but these two systems, IMO, have to be re-engineered for the civilian fighter. The civilian fighter doesn't always have the tools nor the tactical backup that is relied upon in any military or law enforcement environment. Different goals set different guidelines. The military, depending on its environment and end goal may look for the quick kill, or share some similarities with the police, which follows a use of force continuum, but a civilian.....may need something different.

I agree that non-LEO/MIL will operate under different circumstances. Krav Maga Worldwide has a separate division dedicated to training for LEO/MIL, so I'd conclude that lots of time and effort by many qualified instructors has been dedicated to tailor the system to apply to situations faced by LEO, MIL, and civilian.



KravPirate, that was a real good post on Krav, thanks for sharing your perspective as an experienced coach.

[Nik the Greek]

Don't get me wrong KP, I think aggression and "warrior" mindset is key. I just meant that there seemed to be shortage of tactics for anticipating the reactions of trained opponents such as can be found in JKD or higher level Muay Thai. I *believe* that it remains an effective system for a smart combatant, I just don't have any examples of real world proof.

On that note, I think that the warrior mindset might be at the heart of the debate that occurred earlier in the thread. Many systems teach effective techniques, not all teach mindset. That's one of the things I really like about Krav.

[will_1400]

I have a love/hate impression of Krav. It has some great ideas, but some of the techniques I've seen from people who claim to be krav teachers make me think "WTF?". Example: I've seen someone who claimed to be a krav instructor say that a good defense against a knife-wielding opponent is a high kick to the head. When I pointed out that this puts your femoral artery in easy reach of the bad guy, he looked at me with the same expression a dog has when it's trying to figure out the answering machine. On the other hand, I've seen some krav guys who are just plain brilliant, if a bit biased against classical martial arts.

Anyways, if taught properly, krav is a hell of a system to use and it's on my short list of recommendations for people who need to learn to fight in a hurry.

[KravPirate]

Nik, that's why we, as coaches, cross train in MT, BJJ, etc. and we strongly encourage our KM students to do the same. The creators of the program have many years of experience in multiple disciplines.

Will, I agree. Some KM programs teach some questionable weapon defenses, especially knife defenses. That is going to vary based on the KM affiliation.

[jiminsandiego]

It appears that Brian B took a portion of a post I wrote that did not seem to "go through"(???) and added a link to the book. Thanks Brian B for the link. Maybe you could repost my post? Anyway... it's an interesting book. I realize that striking is just one part of the equation but I feel some people may not appreciate some aspects of using different body parts as weapons on various vulnerable targets. Learning about these vulnerable spots and effective ways of striking them was, for me, a very interesting aspect of "the equation".
Jim

[jc000]

Hey, just wanted to chime in. I respectfully think some people are overthinking things here a little.

I can't see where MMA isn't one of the optimal martial arts training paths. Free sparring in MMA (in my experience) can be as close as you can get to an actual confrontation. I'm confused by the statement regarding punching a partner during BJJ--when training MMA you ARE punching/striking both standing up and on the ground and plain jane BJJ defenses won't work on their own. MMA is not BJJ.

I really don't buy in to the "BJJ doesn't work in the streets" line of thinking. Anything works at the right time--it's all situational. As mentioned before by other posters, having a well-rounded plan to include physical conditioning along with realistic stand-up/ground fighting/weapons training should give most a versatile toolset to defend yourself.

[Leozinho]

I've been training in isshin-ryu karate for 10 years and I've been working at an MMA gym for a few months so I'm probably biased.

I'm not a fan of MMA for many situations. Yes, it's good to know how to grapple, but coming from a striking background, I often find I have to restrain myself from punching my partner during BJJ practice whenever I find openings (which are numerous if it's pure grappling). I can't help but think that those openings are lethal if the other guy has a knife on him. Not to mention if he's got friends who can curb-stomp you while you're trying to choke him out.

Hey, just wanted to chime in. I respectfully think some people are overthinking things here a little.

I can't see where MMA isn't one of the optimal martial arts training paths. Free sparring in MMA (in my experience) can be as close as you can get to an actual confrontation. I'm confused by the statement regarding punching a partner during BJJ--when training MMA you ARE punching/striking both standing up and on the ground and plain jane BJJ defenses won't work on their own. MMA is not BJJ.

I really don't buy in to the "BJJ doesn't work in the streets" line of thinking. Anything works at the right time--it's all situational. As mentioned before by other posters, having a well-rounded plan to include physical conditioning along with realistic stand-up/ground fighting/weapons training should give most a versatile toolset to defend yourself.

Yes, it seems Will_1400 has used BJJ interchangeably with MMA, when it isn't. (Was that a typo or mistake?) BJJ may be a good starting point, but there's no doubt that BJJ will leave you wide open for a variety of strikes.

MMA > BJJ for self defense. How could anyone disagree?

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I think the case for Krav or other "reality fighting" arts comes with the introduction of weapons (usually just weapon defense and not how to employ your weapon - a drawback) and the various 'dirty tricks' that are illegal in the ring but completely ethical in a self defense situation.

However, for me the question is if the lack of 'aliveness' in, say, Krav compared to MMA is worth it. Ultimately, the degree of 'aliveness' will differ from gym to gym, but plenty of Krav classes are full of women there to lose weight (Ironically, these classes may be taught by an overweight woman. I speak from direct experience.) Whatever sparring that is done in those classes will rarely replicate the intensity of a MMA gym with a few amateur fighters keeping people honest. I'm not sure that the fact that the Krav class will introduce a knife defense is enough to recommend it over a MMA gym.

[Dropkick]

In my opinion, a large majority of the people who seek out any sort of self defense training aren't looking for honesty, they're looking for something that will give them a quick "feel-good" fix to whatever they fear.

Which in turn makes it tough for someone starting out who really is serious. It's easy to get suckered into some system that isn't pressure tested and not even realize it.