rear night sight question -- one versus two dots

[GJM]

All, thanks for all the good info -- think I will be ordering some Warren two dot rear sights to try.

It seems there are different situations, generally within the category of dark, which are very different. Such as:

1) Shooting with a WML, as I did last night in pitch dark conditions, doing Dot Torture. While my front sight had tritium, using a Surefire X300 on a relatively close target, I don't recall seeing the tritium dot -- just a perfectly defined black front sight.

2) Going from bright to dark, where your eyes are not adjusted. This is where I have a particular problem with one dim rear dot, and prefer two dots.

3) Eyes completely adapted in pitch dark, where the single rear dot might be bright enough, but questions remain, raised by TLG, on the relative precision compared to two rear dots.

Probably a number of other situations I haven't contemplated.

[Up1911Fan]

Of the Warren and XS two dot sets (XS is actually a dot and bar, but two reference points), the old style Trijicon 3 dot and new HD three dot, and front tritium only which I've had on guns, I find the HD sets the most desireable. The rears do not appear to me to compete with the front for prominence. And if they did they could be easily filtered with some ink.

The night shoot with Hackathorn, I used front tritium only and I did not enjoy it at the 7 and 10 yard line.

Doesn't Hackathorn run a black rear/tritium front?

[MichaelD]

I have Warren two-dot rears on two of my M&P's and quite like them. They're green front, yellow rear and the rear dots are distinctly dimmer than the front.

[JHC]

Doesn't Hackathorn run a black rear/tritium front?

Yes IIRC that was his stated preference one year ago almost to the day.

[ToddG]

I've found the easiest way to get people to think about realistic sight choices is to perform a simple exercise:

Take the slide off your gun. Hold it in approximately the same position it would be in if you were shooting. Now walk around your whole house. Stand in every corner and point the gun at every corner. You'll find places where you don't need tritium at all. You'll find places where tritium alone doesn't allow you to make a clean hit on an identified target. You'll find places where simply having a trit front (or 2-dot system) will allow you to get a perfectly adequate sight picture. And you'll find places where having a 3-dot system gives you more confidence that the bullet is going where you want it.

If you get a chance, try this exercise in the morning, afternoon, evening, and at night. Don't purposely turn lights on or off, just walk around your house as is.

The experience, if you'll pardon a horrible pun, may be illuminating.

[TCinVA]

Ditto what Todd said above.

Personally, I've spent a considerable amount of time working on that problem and for me the two subdued dots in the tritium rear sight as Warren does it with a standard brightness front yields the most useful sight picture. Even with a threat-focused sighting approach, the sight picture is stupid easy to pick up. When I've done low light stuff I find that I'm actually faster and more accurate getting hits on a stationary target using the Warren 3 dot tritium sight setup than I am with irons in bright light.

It's the next best thing to a laser.

Will it be ideally useful under all possible lighting scenarios? No...but in those scenarios where tritium is helpful the Warren style 3 dot arrangement is the best option, IMO. His 3 dot sights all have subdued, smaller lamps in the rear to the best of my knowledge. At least that's the case on the sights for Glocks and M&P's.

[JHC]

I've found the easiest way to get people to think about realistic sight choices is to perform a simple exercise:

Take the slide off your gun. Hold it in approximately the same position it would be in if you were shooting. Now walk around your whole house. Stand in every corner and point the gun at every corner. You'll find places where you don't need tritium at all. You'll find places where tritium alone doesn't allow you to make a clean hit on an identified target. You'll find places where simply having a trit front (or 2-dot system) will allow you to get a perfectly adequate sight picture. And you'll find places where having a 3-dot system gives you more confidence that the bullet is going where you want it.

If you get a chance, try this exercise in the morning, afternoon, evening, and at night. Don't purposely turn lights on or off, just walk around your house as is.

The experience, if you'll pardon a horrible pun, may be illuminating.

I expect this exercise will also make the point that there is a big universe of places and lighting conditions beyond the cliche of "just at dawn and just at dusk" where one can ID a threat yet still struggle to use non tritium or other high-viz sights. And those places exist 24x7 in parking garages, indoors in all sorts of lighting.

[TCinVA]

I expect this exercise will also make the point that there is a big universe of places and lighting conditions beyond the cliche of "just at dawn and just at dusk" where one can ID a threat yet still struggle to use non tritium or other high-viz sights. And those places exist 24x7 in parking garages, indoors in all sorts of lighting.

Precisely. Lighting is not static. Anywhere. In daily life I can find places where I transition from pitch darkness to eye-watering brightness (night or day) just by moving just a foot or two...and every condition in between within a few feet.

Having options that let you aim a handgun regardless of what lighting you find yourself in is a pretty good idea.

[Rex G]

Some two-dot rear sights mess with the image I am seeing under some conditions; I will see five dots instead of the correct three. (I asked my eye doc if I had a touch of astigmatism, but he did not find it.) I generally avoided night sights until 2002, or used a tritium dot in the front sight only. I ran Heinie Straight-8 sights on my duty/carry Glocks from 2002-2004. I switched to SIGs in 2004, and settled on tritium only in the front sight, with the original SIG Von Stavenhagen rear sight. Recently, however, that is not working so well, anymore. I need to try wider rear notches, but I may also be switching pistol platforms, for orthopedic reasons, or perhaps just retiring and depending upon a cane.

Interestingly, when I recently brought my Les Baer TRS out of a nearly-ten-year hibernation, I found its three-dot set-up working quite well, as if my vision, while getting worse, overall, may have changed to being more aggreeable with three dots. I will need a wider rear notch soon, however.

I don't claim to have the answers; just adding my $0.02. I do know that flashlights have become far more important lately!

[GJM]

Slight thread shift, but related -- when we have visible green lasers, that are reliable, in an ergonomic package like the M&P Crimson Trace product currently available in red, we will have a serious augment to our capability in mixed lighting conditions.