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Thread: Coatings

  1. #41
    Member
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    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Riehl View Post
    Diamond like carbon is a wonderfully wear resistant finish. It is also a very thin, very brittle finish. It does not offer the best corrosion resistance. And most importantly to me, it practically all but prevents future work done to the gun.

    However, if you plan on no further work, like the color, keep the gun in a non corrosive environment, and are horrified by holster wear (99% of the 1911 crowd is) - then this is a great finish.

    Every coating is a compromise. Everythin is a compromise. Picking the right gun/coating/airplane/Le Mans car is all about picking the best compromise.
    The thickness poses no issue and most W DLC have electroless Ni underneath so corrosion isn't an issue. The Sig Mk25 is such a critter. PVD coatings can be removed, too. I had TiAlN removed from a Cromoly 1911 and replaced with amorphous W DLC and its wearing especially well.

    I'm interested in what you are offering however and look forward to your results.

  2. #42
    I was on NIC/Cerakote's website the other day and saw their wear test results:
    http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/r...g/Abrasion.pdf

    The Ionbond coating was the worst performer in this wear test compared to Cerakote, Gunkote, Duracoat, bluing and a few others. I was pretty surprised because Ionbond is supposed to be so durable. I even talked to one of the Cerakote reps and they stand behind their test. I'm curious to know what Ionbond has to say about these test results.
    Dave Berryhill

  3. #43
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    Interesting.

    They don't say WHAT IonBond coating, though...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Berryhill View Post
    I was on NIC/Cerakote's website the other day and saw their wear test results:
    http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/r...g/Abrasion.pdf

    The Ionbond coating was the worst performer in this wear test compared to Cerakote, Gunkote, Duracoat, bluing and a few others. I was pretty surprised because Ionbond is supposed to be so durable. I even talked to one of the Cerakote reps and they stand behind their test. I'm curious to know what Ionbond has to say about these test results.
    Me too. The 1911 you built for me with the IonBond is holding up far better than another 1911 coated with GunKote. I've sold the Commander that I had Cerakoted, but it seemed to hold up well for the first few hundred rounds.

  5. #45
    Hobbyist
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Kansas City
    Mods, or OP, please move if this diverges too much from the intent of the thread, but it seems useful to discuss scope.

    What do y'all want the finish of a firearm to do, ideally?

    On my steel guns, I simply want the finish to prevent corrosion. I want to be able to toss the gun in a wet leather holster in the trunk of my car after a rainy August thunder ranch class, and not have a single component of the pistol rust detectably. I want to be able to stick the gun in my running holster and soak it with sweat, then holster it for street carry without feeling like it needs to be detail stripped.

    From what I've read, GLOCK seems to accomplish this out of the box. That's a compelling reason to buy a G19, right there.

    On my preferred aluminum guns, I also want the finish to protect the base material of the frame from dimensional change through wear. Hard anodizing seems to do an ok job of that, but I'd like something better, or something additional.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    Interesting.

    They don't say WHAT IonBond coating, though...
    Yes, it's difficult to accept the test results without knowing more. The also tested "bluing" and "black oxide" separately. Black oxide IS bluing, at least it's the most common type used (AKA hot tank bluing and caustic bluing) by most firearms manufacturers. There are other forms of bluing, such as slow rust bluing and carbonia bluing, so some other form was tested.

    I'm skeptical without seeing all the details.
    Dave Berryhill

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Berryhill View Post
    I was on NIC/Cerakote's website the other day and saw their wear test results:
    http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/r...g/Abrasion.pdf

    The Ionbond coating was the worst performer in this wear test compared to Cerakote, Gunkote, Duracoat, bluing and a few others. I was pretty surprised because Ionbond is supposed to be so durable. I even talked to one of the Cerakote reps and they stand behind their test. I'm curious to know what Ionbond has to say about these test results.
    Ionbond less durable than bluing? Somebody royally pooched that coating job. That is not remotely typical.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    Interesting.

    They don't say WHAT IonBond coating, though...
    Almost everything I've seen from them is diamond like carbon. They offer both services (deposition of DLC) as well as equipment/process IP.

    DLC, for the right application, is a great coating. It excels at minimizing holster wear. It lowers the CoF for most base metals. When done via some CVD processes, is not line of sight (meaning it will coat firing pin channels, extractor channels, and so on). Typically, though, CVD is not used for firearms and other heat treated parts because the deposition temperature is often higher than FNC. Some get as high as 1000C-1200C.

    Really, like I said above, everything is a compromise. The key to success is picking the right compromise for the intended application. Appearance is part of that compromise. If you like the looks of hard chrome, you can have a wonderfully tough finish with good (not great, and remember, HC suffers from electrochemical throw, meaning poor deposition in firing pin channels, and so on) corrosion resistance. If you want the ultimate in corrosion resistance, EN is great. It wears almost as well (in the majority of it's incarnations) as HC, is far superior in corrosion resistance, and is often alloyed with PTFE or BN or some similar wear/friction additive. FCN can be a good finish as well, as long as it's limitations are kept in mind - they tend to induce quite a bit of surface stress, require conversion temperatures, and so on. But the result is a nice hard finish that is appealing to the eye for the tactical guys. Cerakote/BlackT/etc are some of my favorite, mostly because they are great barrier coatings, offer some lubricity, are easily re-done, and are inexpensive. They work their best over a more rugged coating, like a PTFE free EN-W coating. Which happens to be my personal favorite system. You get superior corrosion resistance, plus it's black and that is necessary for tacticalness.

    As for removing coatings - HC and EN can be chemically stripped at minimal cost. FCN is a permanent thing and is more of a "treatment" than a "coating." The DLC, BC, and the rest cannot be chemically removed (without serious attack of the underlying metal), and require abrasive removal. You simply cannot sand blast everything off effectively. After all, you cant blast the extractor channel in a 1911 very effectively. You can make it look right on the outside, but...
    Disclaimer: I am actively working in the firearms industry. I am developing and marketing a finish/coating product line.
    Blackfire Engineering
    1911 Enthusiast

  9. #49

    Pics of a bolt carrier



    Disclaimer: I am actively working in the firearms industry. I am developing and marketing a finish/coating product line.
    Blackfire Engineering
    1911 Enthusiast

 

 

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