In my very amateurish opinion, if you don't see spectacularly different results in gel tests (AKA as "rifle/shotgun rounds") don't expect those "hit by a lighting bolt" results in real life...
In my very amateurish opinion, if you don't see spectacularly different results in gel tests (AKA as "rifle/shotgun rounds") don't expect those "hit by a lighting bolt" results in real life...
Makes sense. Even newer stuff when compared to 9mm has a lot of noise and blast, and that's just me being behind the gun.Originally Posted by Shawn Dodson
Being front and center to receive the sound and the fury probably requires some testicular fortitude.
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
Well, there was an immediate reaction, but it was physical and not psychological and quite final. I was there and observed the shot and result, but it was not my shot. I was armed with a .45 and had just dealt with my part of the situation and turned to my partner as he was beginning the shot.
A single event does not establish much. I handled a "bad odor" call once and found three dope dealers that had been executed by a business associate with a single round of .25 acp each. Two fell and never moved and one crawled about 10 feet before expiring. That does not mean the .25 acp is a dependable defensive caliber.
See the article - Emotional Fainting: An Involuntary Psycho-physiological Mechanism of Collapse
Thank you for the article. I am familiar with the concept. There have even been suggestions of people who died from non fatal wounds due to a psychological reaction.
Although I cannot remember all the details from the autopsy, in the case I mentioned the very rapid death was due to extensive damage to the heart / aorta, and resulting massive internal hemorrhage. With that shot placement, I suspect any decent centerfire round would have had the same or similar effect. Maybe the person would not have "fallen down" as quickly as he did but for the shock and awe of the muzzle blast and flash, but he was gone before EMS got there.
His colleague survived as far as the ER.
Please bare with me, my keyboard is malfing and some letters very much so.
I've done some night shoots. I've shot some plus p plus pitch black and .357 nearly so and sometimes 1 of 6 will give a big oxidization flash some more than others of course, some not at all, and looks different from different camera angles and not sure how much frame rate and angles plays into that.
I believe that is part of the story, with high EKE being the other....
last time I checked mammals had nerves
realizing FIBS changes behavior beyond the most dedicated attackers
This is seen in deer at different velocities 1200 one thing 1400 another and still over 1700 seems more so
Seems to start taking effect at least sometimes 115+p+ 1300 430ish ME and 125 at 1425-1450 584 ME w a HP be that magnum...likely a bit more because of some fragging sjhp...or Sig 125 jhp...seemed they were very effective.
Bigger displacement is an always more tissue crushed, faster blood loss, also easier to nick something vital... if it is .90 or .75 then .53 to .58 to me.
Momentum through bone straight path matters more, and JHPs or wadcutters will CUT IN better than fmjs that may skim bone more often depending on angles.
But to disregard smaller at faster seemed to be more effective at least sometimes, on none dedicated ready to die attackers, given at least adequate pen distance is strange to me based on all observations.
BG's realizing they have been shot, instead of walking through many hits until BP drops and they feel dizzy bend down get back u
Yes I understand no guarantees and tons of variables
It just seems 1450 got more behavior changing reactions more often then 1150 from same basic diameter and even less penetration
A 124+p gold dot works adequately well 1220 fps...load that to +p+ in a quality long duty sized poly barrel pistols at 1360ish where recoil difference is very minimal I believe sometimes it would have better results towards what .357 sig 125 gr often but not always did. BGs going F I've been Shot... plus first few inches of wound would be torn more a bit wider I do believe adding to the wound...
Realizing FIBS changes behavior (except for dedicated ready to die/or psychosis that just walk through regardless of caliber like the guy in NJ that was taking 9/40 like popcorn, 5.56...until what sounds like 7.62 came out to play and biomechanically bent his arse over with a hip gurdle shot from the looks of it), many nowadays on camera look like they don't realize it at least the first few hits often, and now that we have all this footage most is 9mm.
Just my thoughts
A little off track, I admit to not having the amount of first hand knowledge others here do, and was curious about common penetration depths
jhp vs fmj
.38 and up
.380 and under
And if they seem to fall in those general categories real world the way we have been led to believe.
Last edited by Ghost Dog; 04-22-2024 at 09:33 PM.
FWIW, I've had the same theory for years now and came by it independently without knowing others had suspected the same.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I carried an S&W model 28 Highway Patrolman on patrol in the 80's, loaded with .357 Magnum 125gr. I agree, the muzzle flash was not an always thing.
Please excuse my ignorance, but what's "FIB"?
All the other points you bring up have been studied by folks that I have reason to believe are knowledgeable and competent, and who have dismissed them as being mechanisms of incapacitation, with explanations I believe are reasonably credible.
Perhaps the most obvious examples are deer that run a distance before collapsing after being shot with centerfire rifle hunting bullets. These bullets produce a lot more temporary cavitation and wound trauma than .357 Magnum 125gr.
In all my studies of wound ballistics, it keeps coming back to being what you hit is more important than what you hit with.
FIBS=F%ck, I've Been Shot
At close to contact distances it wouldn't be only Bang, sometimes flash, but actually feeling the blast hit clothes/chest whatever. A Real 4D experience telling their brain dohlt done messed up now.
.357 within 3 yards tends to shred targets and blow them back pretty good. So Bang/smack or Bang/Flash/Smack.
I just belive on top of that perhaps is also a physical Expanded Energy component that also tells their nerves "F I've been shot by that hand cannon OMG I'm gonna die".
Since this thread is getting .357 focused and bit
Did 125 sjhp stay in bodies but 158 gr sjhp or sp keep on trucking like the 135 Critical Duties?
Various sources say comparing. 357 in a lever gun once over 1700 compared to from a revolver does have a different effect on deer, yet that isn't hitting 2200 fps. Dick Fairburn Ohio PD that trained some w Dr Fackler does water jug Pen tests and w 125 xtps thinks good home and ranch defense.
.45 jhps either inside or half expanded back clothes? What about .45 fmj were there clear exit holes or did it seem to do a lot of damage and a bigger tumbling exit tear?
Reply With Quote