Real World Penetration? Critical Duty how often Real World does it fail to expand

[Ghost Dog]

Hello,
Yes, I have read all stickies here and other forums, read notes from Mas over the years etc. but I would like more reports from people on here that are very experienced, saw a lot, did a lot, investigated a lot etc.
Since there a tons of LE and retired LE on here, and I assume some Emergency room medical pros or EMTs...
I have general Real World penetration questions then more specific on critical duty and others jhps
In general, I'd like to know from those on here how often in the Real World on Bipeds divided into 4 categories if known
How often did they fail to penetrate deep enough to get to organs? How often did JHP's fail to expand or only deform a little bit?
1. .38 & Up JHPs or sjhps
2. .38 & Up FMJs or lead round nose/swc/wc
And then the same thing please in .380 and under?
3. Pocket JHPs
4. Pocket FMJs

Was it most typical to find bullets under the back layer of skin or in the back clothing, or dropped on the ground near by or in the ambulance or how often was it even less penetration and somewhere in the body and only the Xray machine knew where?

I have never been overly impressed with Critical Duty (the only calibers I think it is pretty good is in .45 & 10mm). I have lurked on here where it seemed at least a couple LE have mentioned OIS Pass throughs failure to expand which I would assume was mostly 135+p from full 4 1/2" duty guns. Then this guy got ambushed at a girls apartment and claims to have been shot up to 15 times with a .45 mag dump (was it an FN or some were double entrance and exits?). They said it was either Critical Duty or Defense bullets and I believe he said 10 failed to expand and were pass throughs (I watched this a few weeks ago) so I remembered what I read on here.

Overall am I correct that most have seen better real world good performance from Gold Dot or HST?

I am also curious about old stuff like did Hydrashoks often fail to expand if more than a few layers of clothing? Same 127+p+?
What about Golden Sabers across calibers, was jacket separation a real big deal or did they tend to work good anyways?

Does anyone other then the Sgt Gramins OIS, have much real world knowledge of poor performance from .45 & .40? I assume some .45s only partially expanded but still performed well (what did LAPD/Sheriff's/SIS use in .45 back in the day was it Hydrashoks or Golden Saber or Winchester I always wondered) and I would assume almost all .40s did expand good real world since they have good energy to start with. Similarly, it seemed that almost any 125 grain .357 Mag or Sig performed well.

Does anyone want to speak on how back in the day, unless major barriers first, 115+p+ like 9bple, Corbon, Ranger seemed to work or .357 125 gr sjhp?

How often was their major bone deflection changing paths drastically? And was that usually pocket pistol calibers or 9mm 115 grain either jhp or fmj? Contrarily, did everything 124 grain or heavier tend to have the momentum to stay on path even through bone?

Do bullets you see get 12-14" in Organic Gel usually get that far in the organic bipeds, or is it many times less than that and not straight bullet paths especially when hitting bones early on?

How many on here are comfortable in retired civilian life with .380, .32 acp, or .32 H&R since with either FMJ or good JHP/sjhp ammo choices they will get at least 10" of penetration? How many here are still of the .38 and Up belief?

I guess generically what calibers and/or bullet types did you see Good, Adequate, or Poor performance from regularly?

Thank you

[Polecat]

Interesting thread and looking forward to the responses. Two quick things I will offer is there was a post if I recall on S&W Forum from a “Deadmeat” handle who is, or was a local Atlanta ME or Pathologist Assistant / Deanor, who espoused favor for the bigger calibers .40 and up. This based on his actual post mortem exam AND after action reports, which together tell a more complete story.

I asked Mas in a class once regarding the FBI minimum and whether or not he felt it should be updated as on average people are about 30% bigger from an average BMI standpoint, from the time those standards were comtrived. He said, interestingly, the Border Patrol uses a different standard with lower penetration.

I would like to hear more about the Border Patrol standard if anyone has more complete detailed insight?

I would think you should look at your most likely scenario and choose a load based off your most likely actual need, if that’s a terrorist hiding behind barriers for you, and for me an armed perp in clothes in close proximity with possibility of errant shots etc. You need need to consider that.


Dave

[BehindBlueI's]

.357 magnum from a duty sized barrel or up, I've yet to see one stay in a human. They expand just fine, but they keep on trucking. .45 and 9mm they expand and typically stay inside the person or their clothing on the back end. Don't have any real sample size of any others. Don't know I've ever seen a pocket caliber CD used in the real world.

HS is not a reliable expander in .45 and I've seen it expand lopsided many times, with half or more of the petals not deforming. No real sample size in others.

.40 S&W tends to be a reliable expander in multiple offerings. Bonded keeps it intact. If I had to run budget or unknown ammo, I'd almost certainly go with a .40 S&W.

[Ghost Dog]

Interesting thread and looking forward to the responses. Two quick things I will offer is there was a post if I recall on S&W Forum from a “Deadmeat” handle who is, or was a local Atlanta ME or Pathologist Assistant / Deanor, who espoused favor for the bigger calibers .40 and up. This based on his actual post mortem exam AND after action reports, which together tell a more complete story.

I asked Mas in a class once regarding the FBI minimum and whether or not he felt it should be updated as on average people are about 30% bigger from an average BMI standpoint, from the time those standards were comtrived. He said, interestingly, the Border Patrol uses a different standard with lower penetration.

I would like to hear more about the Border Patrol standard if anyone has more complete detailed insight?

I would think you should look at your most likely scenario and choose a load based off your most likely actual need, if that’s a terrorist hiding behind barriers for you, and for me an armed perp in clothes in close proximity with possibility of errant shots etc. You need need to consider that.


Dave

Yes, I've read that stuff from the ME.

I'm told some LE Departments will in fact be fine with less than 12" in exchange for larger expansion. 9bple was used by everyone pretty successfully even though a less than 12" penetrator, except I assume in OIS involving vehicles though that was Illinois State Police load I believe until changed to .40 probably for that vehicle reason? Secret Service picked the similar Ranger 115+p+ after their in house secret sauce study, which I believe was 10.7" of Clothed Penetration going from memory.

The .357 mag 125 gr sjhps were just a little less or just a little more than 12" clothed penetration depending which manufacturer and 1425 vs 1450 fps from 4" barrels. It was also the chosen load for postal inspectors for their 3" magnums.

[Ghost Dog]

.357 magnum from a duty sized barrel or up, I've yet to see one stay in a human. They expand just fine, but they keep on trucking. .45 and 9mm they expand and typically stay inside the person or their clothing on the back end. Don't have any real sample size of any others. Don't know I've ever seen a pocket caliber CD used in the real world.

HS is not a reliable expander in .45 and I've seen it expand lopsided many times, with half or more of the petals not deforming. No real sample size in others.

.40 S&W tends to be a reliable expander in multiple offerings. Bonded keeps it intact. If I had to run budget or unknown ammo, I'd almost certainly go with a .40 S&W.

Behind Blue, for clarity, I believe you investigated a lot of shootings in a decent sized city is that correct? Can I ask what the weather/layers of clothing was like in that state typically...Ie were you North or South or somewhere inbetween temp wise?

To clarify, were you talking .357 in general from 4" or longer back in good old days? That all over penetrated? or were you talking specifically about .357 magnum Critical Duty over penetrating? I would think 125 sjhp wouldn't over penetrate, but especially typical/cheaper 158 gr sjhp/sjsp would. Were .357 Upper Torso/head hits typically all DRT?

If you answer was mostly Critical Duty focused other than Hydrashoks... can you expand more generally please?


Can you speak to general 38 & Up vs 380 & Under?
Hollowpoints vs FMJ in both those categories?

Every .40 I've seen with the exception of UMC in any style of testing, from even subcompact like G27 barrels or longer seems to expand fully. I don't think there was ever a problem with this likely perfect LE cartridge, I think the problem was it was used in platforms not specifically engineered for it both recoil wise and durability wise. While I am sure the hot 155 grain loads originally used like CBP were excellent street stoppers, but that's not the slide velocity load to be training with regularly. It seems either the 165 or 180 HST would be phenomenal, and same weight Gold Dots if doing lots of vehicle stops or highway patrol. It's hard to believe a more perfect pistol bullet for LE purposes, that allows fairly hi capacity as well with a thin enough grip most that most can use it. I love me some huge 45 HSTs don't get me wrong, but 165/180 .40 seems perfect for LE if it's in HK/2.0/Gen 5 thicker heavier slides, p229 designed for it etc.

With decent upper thoracic A/B zone shot placement, It seems even .45 Ball does pretty good from many reports over many years but have seen shots to stomach do not much for immediate threat stopping. I would thick .40 fmj-fp would do fairly well, since high energy and the flat meplate but would have some serious over penetration concerns where .45 ball probably does but not nearly as far downrange. I would think 9mm/380/32 FMJ and .38 round nose kinda sucks unless heart/CNS of course. Good enough sectional density to penetrate deeply, but round Ogive would make a ton of tissue flow around it and not leave a wide enough wound channel (that I assume partially seals up the smaller diameter path...ya know gravity and all as well as some kind of suction/fluid dynamics I would thick). Dr. Fackler said .45 ball was 62% more Tissue Crushed right?

It seems you are saying 9/40/45 most JHPs do expand and either somewhere in body or in clothing on back end? I think you are confirming .45 Hyrdrashoks only partially expanded, and I am assuming often over penetrated especially through more layers of clothing. Still, it be like a .45 Wadcutter almost so I assume fairly effective and what they had at the time that would work reliably well just from guaranteed size. Similarly, I am not sure 230 gr Golden Sabers would always expand real world (especially from shorter than full size barrels), but I am of the belief 185 grain Golden Sabers would. In general, I think a lot of Winchester rounds seemed to work much better in full size barrels, and not that reliably through heavy clothing but I am open to correction on that.

What about .38 snub performance?

What about .380 and under JHPs, either under-penetration or no expansion?

If anyone wants to chime in on preferred Hollow Point bullet weight for 38/9/40/45 that would be welcome as well. Ie, outside of plus p plus, or harder bullets like xtps, I am not much of a 115 grain fan. Outside of HST, I have never been much of a 147 fan either. But I can acknowledge even basic WWB/USA 115 and 147 JHPs do fairly well. A lot of 124+p seems to do well, even from short barrels. I am pretty torn on 165 or 180 in .40, and 185 vs 230 for .45 is a bit easier....with .45 it's more 230 for 4.25" or longer, and 185 for shorter than 4.25" IMO...with the exception of HST works great in all. .38 I am sold on 125-135+p JHPs if usually acceptable POI.

Thank you very much

[Shawn Dodson]

I would like to hear more about the Border Patrol standard if anyone has more complete detailed insight?

See - https://web.archive.org/web/20110202...umber1/toc.htm

[Shawn Dodson]

"Aggressive action by a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately using a handgun only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Even the most disruptive heart wound cannot be relied upon to prevent aggression before 10 to 15 seconds has elapsed.

"Given this limitation, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels in the torso causing circulatory collapse is the fastest and only other reliable mechanism available to the handgun user."

--Martin L. Fackler, M.D., WOUND BALLISTIC WORKSHOP; FBI ACADEMY; September 15 - 17, 1987; "9MM VS .45 AUTO"

Pretty simple, eh?

Nothing's changed since.

Placement plus penetration are the keys to rapid incapacitation.

Never sacrifice adequate penetration for a little more expansion.

The shooting of SC Trooper Mark Coates is an excellent example of "what you hit is more important than what you hit with." Coates was shot with a .22 mini revolver. The bullet cut a great vessel. He collapsed onto the pavement of I-95 20 seconds after being hit. This, after he shot his assailant, Richard Blackburn, 5 times with .38 Special +P.

[Ghost Dog]

See - https://web.archive.org/web/20110202...umber1/toc.htm

Looking now, thank you

[BehindBlueI's]

Behind Blue, for clarity, I believe you investigated a lot of shootings in a decent sized city is that correct? Can I ask what the weather/layers of clothing was like in that state typically...Ie were you North or South or somewhere inbetween temp wise?

To clarify, were you talking .357 in general from 4" or longer back in good old days? That all over penetrated? or were you talking specifically about .357 magnum Critical Duty over penetrating? I would think 125 sjhp wouldn't over penetrate, but especially typical/cheaper 158 gr sjhp/sjsp would. Were .357 Upper Torso/head hits typically all DRT?

If you answer was mostly Critical Duty focused other than Hydrashoks... can you expand more generally please?


Can you speak to general 38 & Up vs 380 & Under?
Hollowpoints vs FMJ in both those categories?

Every .40 I've seen with the exception of UMC in any style of testing, from even subcompact like G27 barrels or longer seems to expand fully. I don't think there was ever a problem with this likely perfect LE cartridge, I think the problem was it was used in platforms not specifically engineered for it both recoil wise and durability wise. While I am sure the hot 155 grain loads originally used like CBP were excellent street stoppers, but that's not the slide velocity load to be training with regularly. It seems either the 165 or 180 HST would be phenomenal, and same weight Gold Dots if doing lots of vehicle stops or highway patrol. It's hard to believe a more perfect pistol bullet for LE purposes, that allows fairly hi capacity as well with a thin enough grip most that most can use it. I love me some huge 45 HSTs don't get me wrong, but 165/180 .40 seems perfect for LE if it's in HK/2.0/Gen 5 thicker heavier slides, p229 designed for it etc.

With decent upper thoracic A/B zone shot placement, It seems even .45 Ball does pretty good from many reports over many years but have seen shots to stomach do not much for immediate threat stopping. I would thick .40 fmj-fp would do fairly well, since high energy and the flat meplate but would have some serious over penetration concerns where .45 ball probably does but not nearly as far downrange. I would think 9mm/380/32 FMJ and .38 round nose kinda sucks unless heart/CNS of course. Good enough sectional density to penetrate deeply, but round Ogive would make a ton of tissue flow around it and not leave a wide enough wound channel (that I assume partially seals up the smaller diameter path...ya know gravity and all as well as some kind of suction/fluid dynamics I would thick). Dr. Fackler said .45 ball was 62% more Tissue Crushed right?

It seems you are saying 9/40/45 most JHPs do expand and either somewhere in body or in clothing on back end? I think you are confirming .45 Hyrdrashoks only partially expanded, and I am assuming often over penetrated especially through more layers of clothing. Still, it be like a .45 Wadcutter almost so I assume fairly effective and what they had at the time that would work reliably well just from guaranteed size. Similarly, I am not sure 230 gr Golden Sabers would always expand real world (especially from shorter than full size barrels), but I am of the belief 185 grain Golden Sabers would. In general, I think a lot of Winchester rounds seemed to work much better in full size barrels, and not that reliably through heavy clothing but I am open to correction on that.

What about .38 snub performance?

What about .380 and under JHPs, either under-penetration or no expansion?

If anyone wants to chime in on preferred Hollow Point bullet weight for 38/9/40/45 that would be welcome as well. Ie, outside of plus p plus, or harder bullets like xtps, I am not much of a 115 grain fan. Outside of HST, I have never been much of a 147 fan either. But I can acknowledge even basic WWB/USA 115 and 147 JHPs do fairly well. A lot of 124+p seems to do well, even from short barrels. I am pretty torn on 165 or 180 in .40, and 185 vs 230 for .45 is a bit easier....with .45 it's more 230 for 4.25" or longer, and 185 for shorter than 4.25" IMO...with the exception of HST works great in all. .38 I am sold on 125-135+p JHPs if usually acceptable POI.

Thank you very much

A lot of this info is already posted here and I'm going to be brief.

4" and up, current (I started in invest in 2012 as a detective, current a LT in Homicide) revolvers specific to critical duty as far as my answer above.

Yes to what I was saying about hydrashock.

I've yet to see a .380 that will both expand and penetrate sufficiently, they do one or the other. Ball will break an adult's femur handily and will completely penetrate a fat guy's torso assuming no large bone strikes.

FMJ works, but it tends to be cheaply constructed and sheds the jacket through glass or hard bone and shatters. If you're going to run ball, run quality ball and not bulk target ammo if possible. Larger/slower bullets hold together better. Ball also skips off round bone easier, deflecting off skulls, riding ribs, etc.

We get all 4 seasons, sometimes in the same day.

[Ghost Dog]

A lot of this info is already posted here and I'm going to be brief.

4" and up, current (I started in invest in 2012 as a detective, current a LT in Homicide) revolvers specific to critical duty as far as my answer above.

Yes to what I was saying about hydrashock.

I've yet to see a .380 that will both expand and penetrate sufficiently, they do one or the other. Ball will break an adult's femur handily and will completely penetrate a fat guy's torso assuming no large bone strikes.

FMJ works, but it tends to be cheaply constructed and sheds the jacket through glass or hard bone and shatters. If you're going to run ball, run quality ball and not bulk target ammo if possible. Larger/slower bullets hold together better. Ball also skips off round bone easier, deflecting off skulls, riding ribs, etc.

We get all 4 seasons, sometimes in the same day.

OK thank you much, appreciate any real world knowledge I can gain on the subject. If there are any particular old threads that dump a lot of your observations please let me know what to search for. Thank you and goodnight.