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Thread: Why do Pistols Jam More in Actual Shootings vs On the Range?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Excellent post.

    So how does the "average" person get access to the maintenance schedule for parts you mentioned for their defensive handgun? I haven't seen this information in many owner's manuals.
    It’s usually something found in an armorers manual rather than an owners manual.

    Most people don’t shoot enough for it to be an issue, but you should be able to get that info by calling your manufacturer’s customer service.

    If you dry fire, ask them about parts that should be replaced with a large number of trigger pulls even if you don’t have a high live fire round count.

    Places like PF and the Brian Enos forum, where people actually shoot their guns are also good sources for this type of information.
    Last edited by HCM; 04-15-2024 at 11:13 AM.

  2. #22
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post

    When somebody spills coffee/pancake syrup/vomits on your gun, you do actually need to disassemble, clean it, and relubricate it...

    I checked a friends gun once, it felt weird. Taking it apart, it had white gunk in it. She had been admiring it while eating ice cream. Wiping it off the outside isnt enough.
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    Thank you for the extremely informative post. I also echo the question of what exactly a conceal carrier should do to maintain their firearm if carried daily. In addition, what would constitute abusive handling of a revolver?
    Snapping the cylinder closed with a flick of the wrist is the first thing that comes to mind.

    Revolvers need to be kept relatively clean vs modern semi autos.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    There are many factors, in order of importance:

    1. Drawing to a bad grip - Practically every person who deploys a handgun for self defense is drawing that pistol in a real hurry, and doing so without having spent a lot of time actually practicing that skill. For police officers, the last time many of them actually drew and fired a shot was whenever the last qualification was. Something that is not recent and relevantly trained is going to be difficult to access when life is on the line.

    As a result, when the go signal comes they grab at the gun spastically and throw it out at the threat as fast as they can't. One or both hands are typically on the gun in a suboptimal fashion, often with digits in the way of the movement of the slide.

    When concealment is involved you often see the cover garment tangled up with the pistol as well since properly clearing the garment and keeping it clear during the critical points of the concealed draw aren't happening. Also on the concealed side you see all sorts of bizarre behaviors that are completely unconscious. This is one of the reasons why I'm teaching specific draw clinics for a small number of students per session as it usually takes an outside observer for them to realize they're doing counterproductive things like using their strong hand to clear the garment, then handing the garment off to the weak hand, and THEN finally getting to going for the gun with the strong hand.

    Very few people toting a handgun for self defense...even a good many who have had formal training...have a real process for the draw. They don't really understand what they're trying to achieve with a draw (namely landing in a reliable fighting platform) and so it's not surprising that without understanding the end state they struggle to have a reliable and efficient process to build that end state.

    The gun runs better, shoots better, and is much harder to take away from you if you have a good grip on the gun. Thus it would be a good idea when building a defensive draw to emphasize getting as much of a proper grip on the gun before it ever leaves the holster as you can. Unfortunately when people do actually train the draw they train to do it "fast" with suboptimal approaches that are counterproductive for actually fighting with the gun. These can sometimes produce good times with a hit, but they tend to fall apart under real stress. (Like at the man-on-man shootoff in the Tactical Conference match)


    2. Lubrication - If I checked 100 carry guns at random...duty or civilian carry...I'd wager I might actually see something approaching proper lubrication on maybe 2 in that 100. Lubrication does not reduce wear on firearms the same way that lubrication reduces wear in combustion engines. It does, however, help move unwanted particulates away from important working parts and smooth the operation of the working surfaces of the gun giving it the best shot at functioning. Proper lubrication helps the system run more reliably. When was the last time you applied lubricant to your carry pistol?

    The lubricant migrates, evaporates, and wicks away on clothing or in the holster eventually. Typically you will see lube accumulate at the muzzle end of the pistol because gravity. Some have noted this and decided they will cheat the system and use grease, not realizing that grease is just oil suspended in a binder and that the oil component does the exact same thing as the oil component in liquid lube (migrate, evaporate, wick away) but leaves a binder behind that will provide absolutely no lubricative qualities but does a bang-up job of holding on to unwanted particulates right where you do not want them.

    I've seen quite a few guns over the years that were shut down because they were greased, usually with some pretty shit-tier "I read about this on the internet" options.

    I know, I know. X is a gunsmith/operator/armorer/famous instructor and recommends using grease. That's all fine and dandy except none of those people are STLE certified lubrication specialists or tribilogists...those being the people who actually understand how lubrication works. I hang with an STLE certified lubrication specialist on a regular basis and got red pilled.


    3. Maintenance - While firearms are not the most complex mechanical devices in the world, they still require proper maintenance to have any hope of functioning. One can throw cleaning into this category, but if point number 2 is addressed properly the cleanliness of the firearm doesn't matter very much until you've accumulated a lot of crud from shooting. It's rare that a duty gun or carry gun will end up with stoppages or malfunctions because it has been shot so much without cleaning that, say, the extractor can't operate because there's so much accumulated crud under it that it won't work.

    In general "maintenance" usually means failing to replace parts on a proactive basis, springs especially.

    Some departments have very good armorer programs. They tend to be the exception. In general if you go to a department at random and find an officer who was issued a Glock pistol five years ago, you will find that none of the springs in the gun have been changed...to include the magazine springs. And if all that officer ever did was fire at qualifications and mandatory training amounting to 250 rounds per year (which is generous, sadly), then his pistol has only fired 1,250 rounds so it is well within the round count advised for all the wear items in the gun.

    Which makes sense...until you actually start to think about this for a minute.

    Objects at rest stay at rest unless acted on by an outside force. Every time the officer walks, runs, drives in a vehicle, runs up or down stairs, impacts the ground taking down a suspect...the rounds in his magazines are bouncing around inside his magazines. That means the magazine springs inside his magazines are getting compressed and decompressed constantly. Not completely, of course, but it doesn't take completely to wear out the springs.

    Thus when he goes to qualify/train in year 5 his Glock stops locking to the rear on empty and he experiences stoppages on the range and he's not sure why. I mean, he's carrying a G17, right? They never have issues!

    Well, they actually do if you beat the shit out of the magazine springs. And it's a guarantee he was issued three magazines with his pistol and that all three of them are on his person every minute he's on duty, save for when he has to take his duty belt off for a bathroom break or something.

    "Hey, wait, TC...I carry every day and do all the same stuff except maybe taking suspects to the ground. Does that mean my magazines are getting the shit kicked out of them, too?"

    Yes.

    And that's why I have dedicated carry magazines and they get new springs once a year. Could I go longer? Probably. Do I care to find out how much longer I could go when the consequences are my gun not working when I really need it? Absolutely not. A gunfight is a situation that has devolved pretty hard for you...so why not stack as much in your favor as you can ahead of time by making sure your pistol has the best possible chance of running?

    As optics become more and more common on duty guns, expect to see pistols exhibiting a little more sensitivity to recoil springs as the weight of mounts and optics starts impacting reliability when recoil spring assemblies start hitting marginal status.

    Of course, there are other springs besides magazine and recoil. Just yesterday I was at an Active Response Training close quarter gunfighting class where a student who didn't shoot his P365 much experienced a breakage of his trigger return spring. It broke in a manner that left the spring in a position where it prevented movement of the trigger. He was surprised by this because he didn't have many live rounds on the gun...but he did dryfire it a lot. Which, to the trigger return spring, is indistinguishable from live fire.

    The P365 is a lovely little thing, but it is the ragged edge of function in a 9mm. It needs to be properly maintained to keep it working, and that includes replacing key components like the recoil spring at proper intervals. Same goes for all the super compact pistols shooting 9mm duty ammo these days. They are great to carry but if you actually shoot them like you mean it, you had best be on the spot for maintaining wear items because their tiny size leaves little margin for error when it comes to the gun working correctly. Keep magazine springs and recoil spring assemblies fresh at a minimum.

    Of course, if you're serious about using one as a carry gun you should probably have a training gun and carry gun that are as close to identical as possible. That way you kick the shit out of the training gun while the carry gun doesn't get much wear and tear besides the daily jiggle rollercoaster from carry. It seems expensive, except when you think about the time and effort necessary to keep up with all that on a single gun doing double duty.


    4. Ammunition - Could be under 3, but deserves a special mention. People fail to cycle their ammunition proactively. All that movement and stuff that impacts the magazine springs in ways nobody thinks about? Same is true for the ammunition. It's getting jiggled and jolted all the time when it's on you. Variations in temperature and humidity, vibration, and of course being cycled in and out of the pistol can all have dramatic impact on how well it functions on game day. Excessive and unnecessary handling contribute to bullet setback and breaking down primer compounds inside the ammunition.

    Just last week I ran into someone who takes the round out of his pistol's chamber every day because he has kids and wants the empty chamber as an extra safety precaution for his carry gun. Personally I'd go with a quick access safe before that, but that's his choice. It is now incumbent upon him to cycle that JHP he's ejecting DAILY to ensure the practice doesn't cause him a problem. He has a system and it will probably work for him.

    That makes him an exception, because damn near everybody else who is doing that is chambering the same two or three rounds over and over again without realizing it's a problem. Just as an example, my brother carries his pistol daily. That puts him far and away beyond most concealed carriers because there is rarely a time when he is not armed. But even so:

    Attachment 117314

    Compare a round of HST right out of the box with the round from his chamber and the first round in his magazine. Note that the cases have had the nickel worn clean off (remember all that movement I was talking about earlier?) and that the bullet is set back significantly in both of them.

    Had he needed to fire his pistol...which he hasn't done in at least a couple of years...it's unlikely his pistol would have worked more than one shot IF it worked for that one.

    My brother is a normal person, not an obsessive gun nerd like me and so he simply doesn't realize how many moving parts there are and how they all fit together. He hasn't been involved in formal firearms training for the last 20 years like I have.

    He and my father would honestly both be better served by a reliable revolver than the semi-autos they are carrying because IF the revolver is built correctly and works properly, it tends to tolerate neglect better than semi-auto pistols. It will work as long as the mechanism itself isn't borked (there are lots of things that can stop a revolver from revolving ranging from abusive handling to an errant gum wrapper) and you can summon enough strength to move the trigger fully to the rear.

    If you could take a working, reliable revolver out of the box, load it with ammunition it likes, and insert it into a holster that you knew it would never leave until the need for self defense was present, it would be about the ideal solution for the typical person carrying a gun for self defense. Most of them don't know how guns work, don't train to use them, and just want them to go bang when they come out of a holster in case of emergency only.

    That's not good enough, of course...except that it stubbornly keeps working for the majority of threats that the normal concealed carrying person actually faces. Their ability to produce a gun by surprise short circuits most criminal assaults immediately. Police face a little bit of a different situation because they usually initiate contact and represent state authority. Bad guys expect a fight from them, compliance from normal citizens. That gives normal citizens the edge.

    The problem with revolvers is that they don't come from the box in perfect working order and go into a holster they never leave until it's game time. They can be rendered useless by careless and abusive handling that a Glock laughs at, and it doesn't show up until you press the trigger and the revolving thing doesn't happen. In which case it's exceedingly difficult to actually correct that problem where a tap rack can solve most of the things wrong with a Glock and at least get you a bang.

    TL/DR, LOL:

    Yes, even duty grade semi-autos show less reliability in fighting conditions than on the training range. Part of that is training, part is maintenance. Revolvers would, in fact, do a bit better in the kinds of stoppages training can explain because they don't give a damn how you grip them. Assuming they are built properly, not abused when handling, and haven't had errant bits of detritus get into the working parts of the gun that can shut it down, they will work as long as you can muster enough force to move the trigger to the rear.

    ("Isn't that a lot of caveats before the moving the trigger part?" Yes. Yes it is. That's the reality of revolvers.)

    You cannot eliminate the odds of stoppages or malfunctions under fighting conditions, but with better training practices and maintenance we could significantly reduce their tendency to appear when it counts. All it takes is time, money, a divorce from ego, and effort. Things people have in embarrassing abundance, right?
    Regarding ammunition: Is there a round chambered ? If you look in the PF law enforcement use of force video thread there are at least three or four examples of officers who got into a situation Eyring them to shoot and did not have a round chambered.

    Is the gun loaded with the correct ammunition? For many years, we issued 40 caliber pistols, but allowed 9 mm blocks as personally owned alternatives. As a result, we had a lot of people with an issued 40 caliber Sigg and a personal Glock 19 or 26. Despite issuing brass cased 40 and nickel case 9 mm in an attempt to visually distinguish the rounds I saw several instances of 9 mm rounds mixed into 40 magazines and on one occasion someone loaded 40 caliber rounds into a Glock 26 magazine and did not understand why their rounds would not not feed or chamber.

  5. #25
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    Thank you for the extremely informative post. I also echo the question of what exactly a conceal carrier should do to maintain their firearm if carried daily.
    Manufacturers are notoriously sparse with that kind of information because it becomes marketing. "Gun X has to have a new recoil spring every y,yyy rounds but OUR super blaster only needs a recoil spring at y,yyy+2,000 rounds! Ours is better!" and people will buy on that basis.

    The maintenance intervals are going to vary depending on the gun. A P365 in it's original form with the short slide? I have one and I'll be replacing that recoil spring assembly every 2,500-3,000 rounds. Magazine springs? Yearly. (I need to grab some, now that I think about it)

    On my G17 I replaced pretty much all the springs at 10,000 rounds, except the springs in my training magazines which I just replace when they start to show issues. That included replacing the striker assembly entirely and the extractor.

    ...of course, I bought all that stuff when I bought the gun pre-pandemic and you could get parts. Best of luck piecing that together now with Glock's reluctance to put spare parts out there instead of assembled guns.

    With my M&P because I'm carrying a mailbox on top I'm replacing the recoil spring assembly every 10,000. I have upgraded trigger return springs in those from Apex, so they should last longer than factory. (Unless you have the Mass trigger return spring, which is really beefy) But I'll replace those proactively, too. Magazine springs have all just been changed out on the training magazines as I bought a lot of LE trade-in magazines that I replaced the follower, magazine spring, baseplate, and baseplate lock on. They should be good for a while. I have enough brand new M&P magazines that I can rotate my carry magazines out with a brand new magazine for a couple of years before needing to address them.

    The short version is that the manufacturers aren't going to readily hand out intervals for replacement to people who aren't LE armorers. Best thing you can do is apply common sense and think about how the gun works and what its operating tolerances might be. A Glock 17 with iron sights shooting +P ammunition is a lot more forgiving in its operation than a Sig P365. The Sig's slide will be moving a lot faster and for a shorter distance. This means the magazine spring has to be strong (as you know if you've tried to load a new P365 magazine spring to full capacity) to move the next round up fast enough to keep up with the slide. The recoil spring assembly needs to be in good working order to keep the slide from moving too fast and to still have enough energy to forcibly close the slide when feeding the next round. The spring in that thing is tiny...just like the rest of the gun...and while I've heard 5,000 rounds come from LE armorer program, factor in the use of spicy defensive ammo and I'd drop that to 3K max.

    Remembering that our goal here is to keep the gun in its best mechanical function should we need to actually defend our lives, not see how long we can go before something breaks a la Todd Green's endurance testing.

    It's kind of like tires. You may be able to get a whole lot more miles out of the tire than recommended, but if you attempt to do so at the expense of its ability to handle moving standing water away from the contact patch then you find out what "too far" is by wrapping your vehicle and yourself around a tree. If your goal is to not end up crashed and have huge repair bills, insurance claims, and lifelong medical complications then seeing how far you can push the tread on your tires (which are, after all, your primary safety system in a vehicle...fucker can't even brake without traction) is an exceptionally poor risk mitigation strategy.

    When something is mission critical you maintain it before it needs the maintenance because the consequences of failure are unacceptable.

    Most of the shooting I do anymore is when demonstrating in front of a class. I don't have time for my gun to shit the bed. So even my training gun gets more TLC than normal because I don't have time to do anything more than maybe swap a gun real quick when I'm trying to run a class.

    As for lubrication, when did you last put lube on the working surfaces of your pistol? If the answer is not "Yesterday" or later, then can you actually see any lubrication in the critical areas? (Like any visible lube on the barrel hood, one of the highest friction points on the gun) If not, when you run the slide can you see some around the area where the barrel locks up at both ends of the slide? Some in the slide rails? If not, apply some. It doesn't need to be dripping with lube, but it does need some. Overlubrication is tough to do because more than necessary will find a way out of the gun when you just run the action a couple of times.

    When was the last time you replaced your carry ammo? I cycle through mine pretty regularly because I just don't bother clearing my carry pistol anymore. I'll use it for some drills when I get an all-too-rare practice session in and just shoot the round sitting in the chamber, then replace it later.

    But it wouldn't be a bad idea to load your pistol and spare magazines with fresh ammo once a year.

    In addition, what would constitute abusive handling of a revolver?
    Flipping the cylinder shut. Flipping the cylinder open. Failing to support the revolver's cylinder when the action is open. (Especially the big N frame .357's with their boat anchor cylinders)

    You can easily bend the crane of a revolver causing lockup issues that aren't obvious until you actually try to use the revolver. They're picky about the ammo you feed them, too. It's easy for an out of spec round in a revolver to gum up the works something fierce.

    Ammo itself is highly variable. Tens of millions of rounds are produced every day with varying levels of QC. Even the tightest QC controlled duty ammo will get dud primers, marred cases, etc. Physical inspection of each round will help eliminate what you can eliminate. I tell people to do that with their defensive shotgun rounds given how often shotgun rounds are coming out of the factory with issues. (Leaing grex, malformed rims, etc)
    3/15/2016

  6. #26
    I don't have hard data, but my belief is that lightweight striker pistols, especially smaller/short barrel models, depend more on you holding the pistol firmly, than heavier hammer fired pistols. One hand, poor grip, under lubcricated, and you go further and further from the center of the reliability envelope.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #27
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Regarding ammunition: Is there a round chambered ? If you look in the PF law enforcement use of force video thread there are at least three or four examples of officers who got into a situation Eyring them to shoot and did not have a round chambered.
    Another biggie, usually induced by unnecessary administrative handling rules.

    Somewhere I read that @Mas actually studied NYPD officers called in off of patrol to qualify and found that coming in off the street 10% of them didn't have a round in the chamber of their pistol. He might be able to shed more light on that, but I have no reason to doubt it.
    3/15/2016

  8. #28
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Great posts @HCM and @TCinVA. I have a few thoughts.

    Weak wrist/grip related malfunctions: I've seen a LOT of malfunctions in classes and competition caused this way, and @SCCY Marshal makes a valid point about limp wristing. Is that term all-encompassing? No, but a stiff wrist is as important as a firm grip. The most common user-caused malfunction I've seen is FTFeed or FTE in compact autos held in a "low grip" and limp wristed. This is more common in females and kids, but I've seen plenty of guys do it too. It's especially common when the gun is new and the RSA isn't broken in.

    How good are people at clearing malfunctions? This should be a regular part of training and practice, yet it typically isn't.
    “There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
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  9. #29
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Another vector for stoppages:

    Lefties.

    Some people have thumbs that are long enough to sit at exactly the right spot to interfere with the spent casing clearing the gun. The extractor hits the shell pushing it to the right where it then impacts their thumb and gets redirected back into the feedway in varying positions. Sometimes clearable with a tap rack, sometimes requiring removal of the magazine to clear.

    If someone's thumb isn't long enough to do that on a duty gun, they can find that it suddenly becomes long enough when they shoot one of the super compact pistols.

    "Wait, shouldn't we be practicing shooting left hand only some even as right handed shooters?"

    Yes.

    And you should be doing so looking hard at how your hands are on the gun to see if you're likely to interfere with function.
    3/15/2016

  10. #30
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post

    How good are people at clearing malfunctions?
    Real ones? Not very.

    The ones that happen on their own tend to be more difficult to clear than the ones we simulate. I've gotten pretty efficient clearing double feeds because of how often I've experienced them using mild FMJ ammo in an M&P with a mailbox on it and a deliberately tightly fitted barrel when shooting left hand only. It tends to catch the case in a longitudinal stovepipe that is more double-feed than stovepipe and just induces a real furball mess if you try a tap rack. Clearing it requires getting the magazine out, running the slide a couple of times, then reinserting and recharging the pistol to keep shooting.

    It helped with diagnosing at speed, too. After the first couple of times I didn't even try a tap rack, just looked, saw the mess, and took the appropriate action. The mailbox makes clearing a malfunction or stoppage easier because it gives you some real leverage on the slide. It's kind of nice.

    Of course, if you experience problems with a pistol like a P365 there's a lot less to hang on to and a lot more spring force to fight with when trying to clear it. These are the guns I see choke on the range most often and watching people try to clear them is like watching a kid with progeria get pushed down the stairs.
    3/15/2016

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