SHTF AR 10 or AR 15?

[Default.mp3]

200 yds seems like an awfully short distance for trying to pick up trace?

I meant that I consistently could not self trace within 200 yards (phrasing was definitely a bit weird); beyond 200 yards, I still have issues, even when prone, and usually cannot consistently self-trace until ~400 yards. This means that it would be quite difficult for me to self-trace when in a more hastily prepared position, such as when braced against a barricade and the like, for further distances. To me, even at the closer ranges, it can be important to self-trace, due to my emphasis on being able to hit small targets (simulating opponents utilizing cover), while dealing with unknown distances, wind, elevation changes, etc.; to me, as a mediocre rifleman, it is far easier in theory to just take a spoiler shot and adjust the to where the splash is for the second shot than to try to read all the different variables and calculate the proper hold.

[Shotgun]

The rest of the area has maybe 20 homes very quiet no crime in the 17 years we have been here.

There's a clue. I don't think any of the other replies have picked up on a second potential user of a SHTF AR 10 or AR 15. If truly for a SHTF scenario, what can the other "we" in the Mitchum househould have a chance of carrying and shooting reasonably well? The "we" in my household tilted the decision in favor of AR 15s.

[littlejerry]

I’ve piled up dozens of whitetails and well over 100 wild hogs with 5.56. 77 SMK, 73 ELDM work great. I’ve killed charging hogs so close I had to side step when they fell stone dead at my feet. I’ve also shot some that I never recovered. Bullet placement matters more than anything.

A short barreled (16”) .308 is not some long range king. .308 out of 20”+ barrels struggles past 600 yards.

If you want a rifle for self defense, an AR-15 in 5.56 is the only realistic choice. You don’t need a heavier rifle, with heavier ammo and lower capacity. If on the other hand you just want a rifle for shooting stuff, then get whatever you want. I can make reliable and repeatable hits 400 yards and in with a 5.56. If I realistically need more range than that, I’d rather use a bolt gun in 6.5 CM.

Yeah I'm going to pile on and say if someone can't drop a fox with 223 they're either doing it wrong or full of shit.

There are many high quality options in 223 now which are effective on deer sized game. Ive had good success with:
62/64 gr Gold Dot/Fusion
75gr Gold Dot
77 TMK
70 gr TSX
75gr TAP



:

[pangloss]

If the OP has all the 5.56 capability he needs and budget is not a constraint, I don't see much argument against getting an AR-10 pattern rifle. The worst case scenario is that you get some experience with another platform and then sell it at a loss.

Also, I think all the talk about re-supply and maintaining equipment during a SHTF situation is mostly fantasy. If you don't have a supply of parts for your platforms when things kick off, then I think you'll just have to make due with whatever you have.

[Robert Mitchum]

I figured out what happened my lizard brain took over and I went into fight drive ... after a few days of relaxing I am back to reality.
Getting old sucks, I still have plenty of fight in me and sometimes I bark at the moon.

[GyroF-16]

I figured out what happened my lizard brain took over and I went into fight drive ... after a few days of relaxing I am back to reality.
Getting old sucks, I still have plenty of fight in me and sometimes I bark at the moon.

Thanks anyway- it’s been an educational thread.

[Robert Mitchum]

All the mindset in the world doesn’t change the fact that being solo and over 40 in any sort of combat are huge disadvantages.

The idea of making it as LAMOE (The last man on earth.) in the event of a major disaster is generally unrealistic.

As is the idea that you’re going to be picking off threats at extended ranges like the second coming of Simo Häyhä or some Jeff Cooper scout rifle fantasy.

The idea that you’re gonna be able to identify threats at extended ranges in the scenario you cited is unrealistic.

There’s a strong case for “bugging in” and being as low visibility as possible.

That said:

AR-15.

5.56 kills people dead. I’ve seen over 30 people shot with 556, 26 of them in a single incident. anyone who tells you otherwise is full of s**t.

5.56 is easier and faster to make hits with.

5.56 can be effective out to 500 or 600 yards with the right gun and the right ammo. But realistically gun fighting occurs within 200 or 300 yards.

556 Ammo is cheaper, more common, weights less, and you can carry more rounds with the same weight. In a fight bullets are opportunities, especially if you are by yourself, which is a real disadvantage.

Longer-term the odds of finding ammunition, magazines and parts to keep a 556 AR 15 going in America are significantly higher. There are generally accepted standards for 556 AR’s and a lot more data about keeping them running long term.

Almost every AR 10 platform is proprietary in someway and not as durable or reliable as a 5.56 gun.

What actually wins fights?

Fire superiority
Mobility
Adequate marksmanship
Adequate lethality

My biggest concerns in the scenario you cite are water and food, with security third. Medical 4th.

Under security I’d rather have two AR 15s 10,000 rounds and a lots of magazines instead of one AR 10 and half as much ammo and magazines. .308 weighs twice as much and costs twice as much.

I definitely want a suppressor to help mask, muzzle, flash, and the exact location I’m firing from. I’m not looking for the quietest suppressor just something to make me harder to locate.

I also want body armor, preferably low visibility and medical. A lone person with a long rifle and overt body armor is going to be perceived as either a threat or a target of opportunity.

An 18 inch 556 is nice, but a 12.5 or 14.5” with a suppressor is more practical.

A bag gun, something that lets me carry a long gun in a lower visibility package is probably more useful than a DMR. A 10.5” with a law folder or something like an SIG MCX or Rattler.


If you just want an AR 10 because they are cool, get one. If you’re not already heavily invested in 308 consider one in 6.5 Creedmoor. Just be realistic about what it is and what it is not.

Excellent post!

[RevolverRob]

AR15 in 6ARC with a can on it and work up a load that hits out to the 1200y range of the 6ARC.

Now you have a lightweight AR15-platform rifle that can shoot farther, faster, and flatter than a 7.62 or 5.56.

/Solved.

[shane45]

Is it though? If I want to target shoot energy is not as important although you would like to be able to discern impact at distance. I CAN see ARC's usefulness in specific roles and maybe a better mousetrap replacing 5.56??? But in the OP's scenario, I would want energy at distance. A quick look at some ballistic charts and it looks like 6arc is considerably down on energy compared to 308 at distance? Now what distance whatever teotwawki scenario you may imagine has any real world relevance is another matter. I would be inclined to agree that it would take one hell of an event to bring this pursuit from theory to reality. But the world has seen those times before. I consider ranchers on the border as perhaps having some relevance to this thought experiment. But I guess I am the outlier here. If I could just grab one from the safe and the scenario is running out into the apocalypse, it will be my 308! It has the broadest spectrum. Close range, long range, better penn on things like auto glass, less deflection in brush conditions etc etc.

[HCM]

AR15 in 6ARC with a can on it and work up a load that hits out to the 1200y range of the 6ARC.

Now you have a lightweight AR15-platform rifle that can shoot farther, faster, and flatter than a 7.62 or 5.56.

/Solved.

6ARC, like 6.5 Grendel has great potential as a DMR cartridge but it’s no replacement for 5.56.

Putting aside things like the distances fights actually happen at, the distances you can ID targets, reduced capacity bs 5.56, etc The reliability of tapered cases in AR mags is still a work in progress and inferior to straight cases like 5.56 or 7.62x51