SHTF AR 10 or AR 15?

[RevolverRob]

Things I'd prioritize over a new rifle - if wanting to harden a rural home:

1) LoRaWAN network across the property
2) Tied into that network a series of monitoring sensors for gates/roads
3) Tied into that network, cameras
4) A pre-determined grid transect that I would have a drone programed to fly a path on. With way points pre-established so I could rapidly deploy a drone and survey any 500m radius in minutes, without having to actively fly the drone.
5) Complete survey of pre-existing fence and properly lines. Including knowledge of where the most likely source of attack on power/water would come from.
6) Supplies to persist for up to 90-days without replenishment/need to hunt any game.

And then I'd worry about a rifle, night vision, and armor.

Because if you have the first five on the list - you're not going to be caught unaware. You'll have intel and can choose how, when, and where to conduct your battle. Amazingly, the last 20 years of warfighting saw rapid progress in optics and modular optimization of small arms - followed by concerted effort in unmanned recon tools. Because intel wins battles and wars.

[Dov]

I used to think 308 had some advantages over 5.56 but that didn't hold up to research and testing.

The only maybe situations I can think of are if you expect to need to stop vehicles vs drivers and giant critters like elephants/rhinos, in which case even with 308 you probably want very specific premium bullets or belt feed. And for vehicles 7.62x39 will work fairly well, or gauge with brennekes

If you really think you need something more than a 5.56 to compliment AR I think stepping up to 12 or 20 gauge with Brennekes (semi or pump), 9.2x62 or 375 H&H (bolt gun), or 50 BMG (semi auto) makes a lot more sense, though of course YMMV.

IF you look at weight and/or $ per number of rounds 5.56 beats 308 even if you need to chew through sandbags or concrete (remember that's going to be edge case for any caliber and will take more than couple rounds).

If you look up 5,56 vs 7.62NATO and number of rounds for initial penetration and for loopholes in various types of hard cover at close range the 308 really doesn't do much better than 5.56 if you compare by rounds per pound or rounds per dollar (ie logistics). Lot of that has to do with optimum velocity for penetration, which for ether of those calibers is more like 400 to 500 yards IIRC, because at closer ranges most bullets are going to self destruct because of impact velocity. And for basically every other situation the 5.56 will be superior because of better price and weight tradeoffs. Unless your in situation where the price and weight penalty of 308 vs 5.56 isn't of concern.

[Dov]

As to 5.56 for dangerous North American critters look up the Zanesville Ohio incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Z..._animal_escape (African Lions, Tigers, and Bears mainly with AR and TAP ammo), and the many substance people in Alaska and Canada that use 223 on most everything.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

https://d21rhj7n383afu.cloudfront.ne...-2000-v3_1.mp4

Montana elephant!

[Joe in PNG]

I've noticed something in my many years of various SHTF & post-apocalyptic media- it appears should that happen, all the world's artillery will apparently magically vanish.

Of course, the scenario that a bandit band of former redlegs giving you 10 minutes to surrender your compound or big booms will occur doesn't readily lend itself to the classic rifle caliber wars.

[Failure2Stop]

I've noticed something in my many years of various SHTF & post-apocalyptic media- it appears should that happen, all the world's artillery will apparently magically vanish.

Of course, the scenario that a bandit band of former redlegs giving you 10 minutes to surrender your compound or big booms will occur doesn't readily lend itself to the classic rifle caliber wars.

There are a lot more gunfight fantasies than survival realities in this type of discussion.

[BillSWPA]

Not going to lie my answer to this question is driven entirely by having a rifle that is fun to shoot and learn.

I've watched as an entire city collapsed around me. When the mobs hit the streets, the only solution was to stay indoors. If you had to move around, you did so with highly mobile, concealed, weaponry and pre-planned movement tactics and communication. Far more important to surviving in those areas was awareness and a well-maintained 4wd vehicle. In those times, having a Sig Rattler was absolutely preferred as was having a concealable double-stack 9mm pistol and several spare mags. Equally important was OC spray to used to divert people away. THE most important thing was to not panic and to keep an absolute low profile, a sub-fucking-terrainian, profile.

Simultaneously, among other far more important factors than which rifle for the hoard is: What are your pre-existing alarm and surveillance systems? Do you have off-grid power and water filtration capabilities? Are you storing a sufficient amount of gasoline for the gas station to be completely dry for 3-4 months? Do you have enough dry goods stored to survive for weeks without a grocery store run?

I ask that - because in my experience ALL of those things came before needing a gun. In fact, as I watched business and neighbor's cars burn, we had rolling blackouts, we had water supply issues, when the looters burned the only pre-existing grocery store within a 45 minute drive, we had to gear up and travel to the next state over for supplies. We lived that way for 7 months in an URBAN area with millions of people. When the meager rationed supplies for small towns dry up - the bread and fuel deliveries will go to the city, not the rural communities. So you need to be incredibly well prepared. And importantly, you are almost certainly still are not going to need a gun. During that time, I extracted my Rattler from its bag in anger exactly 0 times, and my 2011 from its holster in anger exactly 0 times. I never once had any need for any weapon or weapons system.

I'm saying this, not because I don't believe in the martial use of a firearm - but rather to point out that if you'd asked me in July of 2019 what I thought societal collapse would look like and then again in July of 2021 - You'd get two radically different answers. In one of them, I definitely thought having a gun and 8000 rounds of ammo was important. In the other - concealment and mobility absolutely reigned supreme.

Excellent post and excellent dose of reality.

[RevolverRob]

There are a lot more gunfight fantasies than survival realities in this type of discussion.

Indeed. Pragmatically, I think most folks can solve these problems by thinking about the following: What is the most common pest/vermin I need to deal with and at what distance?

If you're dealing with say...prairie dogs - then there is little reason to assume your prairie dog rifle cannot be pressed into service against a human. If you're dealing with hogs inside 200m, the same rifle you use there works on people. Practically speaking if you take whatever skills you're using regularly and change the animal you're shooting at, it doesn't change all that much*. Importantly, whatever distance you're shooting at regularly on your property is likely near the maximum distance you can reliable identify a target to shoot at.

*Yes hunting techniques are different based on the quarry, but for this exercise, we're assuming you're not moving, because you wouldn't give up a defensible, hardened, area, unless you were affecting an ambush.

[SwampDweller]

I see many saying that .308 ARs are not as reliable/durable as 5.56 ones. Does this also apply to ones like the LMT MWS and HK MR762?

[HCM]

I see many saying that .308 ARs are not as reliable/durable as 5.56 ones. Does this also apply to ones like the LMT MWS and HK MR762?

Yes, and the KAC SR-25s.

KAC /LMT/ HK large frames are better than other AR-10s but there is no free lunch. None are as reliable/durable as their 5.56 equivalents.