Why Was Hip-Shooting a Thing?

[medmo]

My father was an avid and competent “hip shooter.” After returning from the Korean War serving in the USMC and becoming an officer with the NYCPD they initially trained revolver bullseye. Non shooting hand in pocket, faced ninety degrees from target, shooting hand fully extended and elbow locked. Later when the FBI rolled out the FBI crouch point method that was adopted. He was a student of the pistol and trained often. I can remember him walking me through the method. Crouch to become a smaller target, step left because the adversary is most likely unskilled and will throw their rounds low and to your right and point like you are pointing your finger below eye level. He could consistently get all six rounds into the chest of a silhouette target with rapid DA at 7 yards. It’s the best they knew at the time and he honed it. Unfortunately he passed away far too young and never experienced all of the evolutions of the past thirty years. What I wouldn’t give to spend a couple of hours of range time with him today.

[HCM]

I almost hate to say it, but there are videos on YT of Taran Butler running plate racks from the hip - damn fast and seldom misses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrIgLt1S86w

1) Taran Butler is kind of a freak of nature (so is Bob Vogel but in a different way ). It’s one of those Superman can’t teach you to fly deals.
2) Both he and the target are stationary.

[HCM]

My dad’s best friend was trained this way, and he had *considerable* experience shooting people in Vietnam and select other SEA places. He was quite good with the technique.

Quick Kill, like the Sykes /fairburn pistol methods are eye level shooting techniques and even though they claim they “don’t use the sites there is still visual reference to a target similar to shooting clays with a shotgun.

Very different from hip, shooting below the line which is at best a carnival trick.

There seems to be a lot of conflating the two in this thread, which is a disservice to the eye-level shooting and ascribes undeserved credibility to hip shooting.

[Rex G]

In the case of Taran Butler, that doesnt appear to be an issue, he seems able to hit about anything he wants to distances further than spitting distance, and evenly placed targets arent a factor. Theres longer versions of this meet-up between he and Vogel. Its pretty close between them as to ability on a variety of targets. Some may see that and feel its a vindication of point/hip shooting, but I think the lesson is that regardless of how good he or some others may be, its still not any particular advantage. Similar results, but not an advantage. Id add that most people are unlikely to have a higher level of eye-hand coordination required to do that. I believe such feats are also more perishable than higher levels of aimed shooting.

I would also suggest that evenly spaced targets can be a factor in many aimed shooting shooters, put them in other situations and their time and hits would go down. One should shoot a variety of things to be a well rounded shooter. I liked running rabbits and squirrel hunting with pistols for a challenge.

In the case of some historical uses as mentioned, its been brought up in previous discussions that the "point shooting" trained used in some places/times had much to do with poor sights, low light, close quarters, and not a lot of time and training ammo to get the officers up to higher levels. It served a purpose at the time and place, but isnt necessarily a universally applicable method in todays uses.

Well-stated. Thanks.

[gringop]

When is Brownie gonna make his appearance in this thread???

A plethora of pistol point-shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/@azqkr/videos


Gringop

[SouthNarc]

When is Brownie gonna make his appearance in this thread???

A plethora of pistol point-shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/@azqkr/videos


Gringop

Ah fuck man tell me you didn’t go there? 🤯

[Borderland]

Shoot from the hip is an idiom.

Used in a sentence.

Donald Trump is shooting from the hip trying to postpone his first criminal trial.

[TCinVA]

I think we’re talking past each other- I shoot a pistol just like the bead on a shotgun. Focused hard on the target, blurry front sight used like the bead on a shotgun. Just like a red dot is supposed to be shot.

Ed McGivern's revolvers...



...had a tall, prominent front sight with a gold bead.

He regularly shot aerial targets with his revolvers in exhibitions. I'm going to just go ahead and say that he did not have equal height or equal light when doing that. He was target focused, looking through his sights. The gold bead makes it possible to look at the target through your rear sight window, see the bead, and make a good hit.

At the Tactical Conference I had the chance to handle Tom's most recent acquisition, a S&W revolver with the King's Custom sight modification. An extremely rare modification but one that puts a prominent, highly visible front sight on the gun. Guess what it is ideally suited for?



Seeing the target through the rear sight window, see the orange, and make a good hit.

The entire reason elite marksmen back in the day went to the time, trouble, and expense of making their sights as visible as possible is most likely because they were all doing most of their shooting looking through their sights, not at them. Especially when we're talking about moving targets and "fast" shooting as opposed to chasing X's on bullseye courses at distance.

I think this fundamental misunderstanding of their process is responsible for most of the garbage the practice of instruction has been saddled with for generations. Including the obsession with parlor trick nonsense like Delf Bryce's shooting methodologies. And unfortunately Delf's promotion by Hoover (partly because of good PR, and I would argue just as much because of Hoover's personal proclivities which colored every single aspect of his time as "director") poisoned police instruction for decades, which is where the LG video was focused.

[TCinVA]

When I was a very young boy, I got to see Bill Jordan run through his standard demo. He was hitting aspirin tablets with wax bullets out of a K-frame S&W at about 15' from the hip at what seemed like insane speeds. I think there are videos of it online.

Later, I read his book, No Second Place Winner, plus Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting by Ed McGivern, Kill or Get Killed by Rex Applegate, and pretty much every word that Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton ever wrote. Then I burned up a lot of ammo trying to duplicate their feats.

It's possible to get hits from the hip but I'm not sure that the juice is worth the squeeze.


Okie John

I often see Bill Jordan cited when point shooting gets mentioned.

What I rarely see anyone who cites him as an authority mention was his practice routine of shooting sometimes hundreds of wax bullets every day to build and maintain his ability to do the things he could do. On the interwebs I often see people who seem to have achieved their educational pinnacle reading karate magazines from the 70's and 80's and the worst gunwriters of the 70's and 80's cite the "instinctual" nature of point shooting, and then they cite Jordan.

It's kind of like revolver religionists citing Jerry Miculek when reloads are mentioned like that's somehow relevant to their carry of a J frame and the 3 speed loaders they carry in a pocket. Because, you know, Jerry can reload a moon-clipped racegun from a race rig in a couple of seconds so that naturally translates to their ability to reload a j frame with a speed loader they're digging out of a pocket.

The key difference between you and those guys is that you actually went out and tried to squeeze.

Most of the point shooting weebs I encounter are the non-shootin-est "there's no timer in a gunfight!" motherfuckers on planet earth.

[Guerrero]

Most of the point shooting weebs I encounter are the non-shootin-est "there's no timer in a gunfight!" motherfuckers on planet earth.

That needs to be .sig