Why Was Hip-Shooting a Thing?

[TCinVA]

In the case of Taran Butler, that doesnt appear to be an issue, he seems able to hit about anything he wants to distances further than spitting distance, and evenly placed targets arent a factor.

I have no problem stating that Taran Butler likely has an exceptional natural gifting of hand-eye coordination that has been honed over a long period of time with abundant practice. None of that hindered by his status as a pro with his own range at his disposal 24/7.

If I were to find myself with my own range, all the ammo I could shoot and all the time I wanted to pursue it, it is highly unlikely I would be able to replicate it even with years of effort because I wasn't born with the capabilities of an elite athlete. I could succeed some, certainly, but not to the same level for the same reasons I won't be out-driving any Formula 1 drivers anytime soon. There ain't enough nurture to overcome some of the giftings of nature.

[okie john]

Ed McGivern, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and others like them practiced constantly.

When I was on the Oklahoma National Guard pistol team, I met an armorer from the Idaho team who had known Keith. He said that Keith shot almost every animal he ever saw, which explains a lot.

Jordan lived in Shreveport, LA, a few miles from my mother’s house. One day I went over there to knock on his door and meet him. When I got there, I could see a big Jeep Cherokee with a USMC license plate backed into the driveway, and I could hear gunshots coming from the back yard. I figured he was practicing so I left without disturbing him.

Quick Kill, like the Sykes /fairburn pistol methods are eye level shooting techniques and even though they claim they “don’t use the sites there is still visual reference to a target similar to shooting clays with a shotgun.

That describes Jeff Cooper’s “flash sight picture” almost exactly.

Ed McGivern's revolvers...

SNIP

...had a tall, prominent front sight with a gold bead.

He regularly shot aerial targets with his revolvers in exhibitions. I'm going to just go ahead and say that he did not have equal height or equal light when doing that. He was target focused, looking through his sights. The gold bead makes it possible to look at the target through your rear sight window, see the bead, and make a good hit.

Yes and no. In Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, he talks about using sights on aerial targets. One page has a picture of some dime-sized lead discs that he had shot in the air while changing the windage on his sights. As near as I can tell, the distance was around five yards, and POI creeps slowly from center to the edge. You can see the image at 5:09 in this video: https://www.google.com/search?sca_es...b3tl7jtGc,st:0

This POI shift could be random but based on my experience of trying almost everything else in the book, I’d go with his version or something like it.

The book provides a lot of insight into his understanding of these problems, his methods, and his results. For instance, he wrote about leaning into recoil on fast DA shooting, which you can see in the video at :47, 1:23, 2:46, and 3:00. Once you realize that he doesn’t control recoil the way we do, but accommodates it by falling forward toward the target, the context for his accomplishments changes dramatically. It changes again when you watch Jerry Miculek beat his records using more modern technique.

McGivern also did a lot of hip shooting with a two-handed braced grip. He held the gun normally in his firing hand, the hooked his non-firing thumb over the top strap and put his index finger just forward of the trigger guard, then clamped down hard. Then he braced his forearms on his stomach. Groups tightened up right away when I tried this, but it took more practice than I ever did to hit a predictable POI.

He also built a machine to ensure consistent throws on aerial targets. Every one of them is higher, lower, slower, faster, and a little to the right or left than the last one. The more you reduce that variation, the easier it gets. Consistent throws let you predict when and where the target will reach the top of its arc and seem to float there. Then the game becomes to hit that spot when the target arrives. Once you get that down, you can move on to getting multiple hits on a single aerial target and other variations.

But you have to shoot a LOT to do any of this.


Okie John

[Malamute]

I have no problem stating that Taran Butler likely has an exceptional natural gifting of hand-eye coordination that has been honed over a long period of time with abundant practice. None of that hindered by his status as a pro with his own range at his disposal 24/7.

If I were to find myself with my own range, all the ammo I could shoot and all the time I wanted to pursue it, it is highly unlikely I would be able to replicate it even with years of effort because I wasn't born with the capabilities of an elite athlete. I could succeed some, certainly, but not to the same level for the same reasons I won't be out-driving any Formula 1 drivers anytime soon. There ain't enough nurture to overcome some of the giftings of nature.

Ive messed with it enough in my youth to know some interesting things can be done, but never came close to what some more gifted shooters could do. One point, I heard Butler mention on one of the vids with Vogel something to the effect of the unsighted shooting not something he thought was practical or useful to most. He also did some sighted runs and is of course quite good, its not like he shoots everything unsighted, and some of the vids of him training people like Jessica Hook or Keanu Reeves, it was all sighted shooting.

Ed McGivern, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and others like them practiced constantly...

That describes Jeff Cooper’s “flash sight picture” almost exactly.

Yes and no. In Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, he talks about using sights on aerial targets. One page has a picture of some dime-sized lead discs that he had shot in the air while changing the windage on his sights...

He also built a machine to ensure consistent throws on aerial targets. Every one of them is higher, lower, slower, faster, and a little to the right or left than the last one. The more you reduce that variation, the easier it gets. Consistent throws let you predict when and where the target will reach the top of its arc and seem to float there. Then the game becomes to hit that spot when the target arrives. Once you get that down, you can move on to getting multiple hits on a single aerial target and other variations.

But you have to shoot a LOT to do any of this.


Okie John

Consistent throws helps arial shooting quite a lot. Strait-away clays are not as difficult as random target directions (have hit a few with 22 rifle). I seem to be slow on arial, tending to shoot on the way down once Ive gotten a sight alignment. Throwing your own targets may slow you down a bit. I suppose if one did it a lot youd get faster/better.

The relatively small amount of arial shooting ive done, I need sights. The sight picture is not exactly a precise image, looking more like aiming carefully, then raise your head about 1/4", just barely looking over the sights, allowing you to see what the target is doing, like a running rabbit, yet still get a fair reference of aim. Its the only way ive been able to shoot moving stuff well. I shoot shotguns the same way, and assumed everyone did, but ive learned some people try to fine aim with the bead on a flying clay. Rifle sights on a shotgun work fine when so used.

[TCinVA]

I've shot clay thrown by one of those red plastic throwers with a pistol on a piece of property that could make that possible to do safely. (valley surrounded by unpopulated mountains with heavy tree cover)

On the couple of targets that I connected with, it was because the clay moved predictably and I could track it while looking through my sights and broke the shot as it was slowing down. I had to maintain a target focus to have any hope of being able to get the gun lined up on it enough to break. And that point where the clay runs out of steam and just starts to transition from ascending to descending is the ideal spot to break that shot.

[Rex G]

Ed McGivern was not the only one of the accomplished “hip shooters” who liked big, bold sights. In case it has not already been mentioned, Elmer Keith also advocated for better sights, which included adjustable rear sights. My old books, that did not get ruined during a flood in 2017, are deep in rented storage, so, I cannot readily cite anything, but I distinctly remember Elmer Keith writing about the Ruger Blackhawk and/or Super Blackhawk, describing the adjustable rear sight as being an important feature. I remember somewhat less clearly his description of his DA revolvers, but seem to recall that he preferred adjustable rear sights on all of his DA revolvers, too.

When Keith had his “Improved Number Five” sixgun built, it had sights made for seein’.

https://neveryetmelted.com/2021/07/2...no-5-revolver/

For further proof, one needs only to look at old images that show the S&W Model 29 that seems to have remained his carry gun, in his later life.

[Jim Watson]

I often see Bill Jordan cited when point shooting gets mentioned.

What I rarely see anyone who cites him as an authority mention was his practice routine of shooting sometimes hundreds of wax bullets every day to build and maintain his ability to do the things he could do.

He also had range gates he thought suitable for different methods, working out from hip, to point, to aim.
Sorry, I no longer have 'No Second Place Winner' to get the numbers.

[feudist]

It would be interesting to measure the speed advantage of hip shooting versus free style "sighted" (however you want to do it-flash sight or target focused) using hit factor scoring at close ranges.
Clearly at some point hip shooting falls apart, but where? And what is the percentage advantage, if any, for hip shooting.

I'd bet that past 2 yards the splits and hit quality would be far better for sighted fire, especially if the target was 3d and clothed, since the hip shooter can't reliably see his hits and adjust fire. OTOH the sights allow shot calling as a speed regulator even on moving targets.

As a cop, I used the "retention position"(basically gun retracted and indexed against my hip) in certain threat management situations routinely, particularly solo, out of concern over a gun grab. A lot of times I would draw to it, and then modify as I moved or the situation clarified. But my intention was always to obtain a free style grip at eye level if I was forced to shoot, even at very close ranges. The amount of practice that I was willing to devote to hip shooting limited even coarse hits(somewhere in the C-zone) to 2-3 yards, standing still. And of course, the downrange hazard was always a huge factor.

[GearFondler]

Clearly at some point hip shooting falls apart, but where? And what is the percentage advantage, if any, for hip shooting.

I don't see how you could ever test that beyond how well you do personally or with a large enough group you might get an average that is irrelevant to those on each side of the curve. It's like asking at what speed does a person lose the ability to hit a baseball... It's all going to come down to natural ability, training, and practice, which will run the gammit from "can't hit at all to 105mph".

[okie john]

Ed McGivern was not the only one of the accomplished “hip shooters” who liked big, bold sights. In case it has not already been mentioned, Elmer Keith also advocated for better sights, which included adjustable rear sights. My old books, that did not get ruined during a flood in 2017, are deep in rented storage, so, I cannot readily cite anything, but I distinctly remember Elmer Keith writing about the Ruger Blackhawk and/or Super Blackhawk, describing the adjustable rear sight as being an important feature. I remember somewhat less clearly his description of his DA revolvers, but seem to recall that he preferred adjustable rear sights on all of his DA revolvers, too.

When Keith had his “Improved Number Five” sixgun built, it had sights made for seein’.

https://neveryetmelted.com/2021/07/2...no-5-revolver/

For further proof, one needs only to look at old images that show the S&W Model 29 that seems to have remained his carry gun, in his later life.

IIRC, Keith liked adjustable sights on DA revolvers because the sight picture was better.

There are images of a couple of his articles and more pics of Number 5 here: https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...arget-revolver

I love that some of the screws on Number 5 have burrs.


Okie John

[BillSWPA]

Hip shooting likely developed when holsters were worn lower than they are today. When Bill Jordan drew his revolver from his holster, it was likely to clear leather when his hand was relatively close to his hip. SouthNarc demonstrated on the former Self Defense Forums that when drawing from a typical IWB holster, when the muzzle clears the holster, the hand is actually closer to a pectoral index than a hip index. When carrying a gun in the holsters we use today, hip shooting is actually slower because the gun must first move up, then back down to the hip.

Reading No Second Place Winner as a teenager was my first gunfighting instruction. Comments above about the amount of practice required for Bill Jordan to maintain his skills are clearly correct.

My first concealed carry class, which was taught by a high ranking law enforcement officer, focused on holding the gun at chest or abdomen height with 2 hands. I passed the qualification, but that was not one of my better targets. I was not able to repeat even the so-so performance a year later using this technique.

Years ago a local shooting range which is no longer in business offered a private training package. I signed up, and received much of my training from a very skilled instructor who was also a student at the local police academy. One of the few issues I had with the training was the use of a hip index rather than a pectoral index. Before I understood the pectoral index, he put me through the standard qualification used at the police academy. Using a full size 1911, I scored 298 out of 300. The two points I dropped were at about 3-5 feet using hip shooting. Once I understood the pectoral index, I was able to persuade this instructor and demonstrate that a pectoral index is both faster and more accurate.

Outside of retention distances, the only time I have ever found any form of instinctive shooting to work well for me was when one of the local pistol instructors had us put electrical tape over our sights, and then mimic our sighted fire technique without our sights. Without being able to see the sights, doing everything else as we would for sighted fire and taking advantage of that muscle memory and some visual confirmation of where we were shooting worked well out to 30 feet.