untrainable

[vcdgrips]

Eye dominance- use the tech described above and/or

holding his thumb up at arms length and covering an object a few feet away with BOTH EYES OPEN-THEN alternate looking with just one eye and one closed to see what is happening with thumb (stay covering the object or shifting-if it stays put , that is the dominate eye) and/or

have the student point a obviously inert orange training gun at you that has had the rear sight opened up so it can be used to demonstrate equal height/equal light and see which eye seems to be favored.

These techniques plus factoring in his dominate side should reveal his dominant eye.

Pistol shooting with cross eye dominance issues is easily surmountable relative to the dominant hand side, long guns, not so much.

[baddean]

Have you ever had a student that just don't get it, Yes
are there people who just can't be trained. Yes

My experience with the "untrainables" in general has nothing to do with poor training techniques, eye sight, lack of hearing protection, eye dominance, gun size, caliber, blah,blah,blah. These can be overcome.
Those that seemed untrainable turned out to be in class because someone close to them thought they should take the class with, or without, them and they didn't want to say no.
They had no interest in being there and attempted, poorly, to go through the motions.
At some point prior to total frustration they were asked if they really wanted to do this and their reply was always no.
At that point it was "hey, this just isn't for you and that's ok."
Trying to force a student to get better at something that they don't want to do won't make them better at it. Or like it.
Some folks take longer to "get it" and some may require different training approaches but for any of that to be effective the student has to want it.

[CCT125US]

Speaking solely to eye dominance. It is possible to almost have a shared dominance , that switches based upon light, strain, fatigue, etc. The internet gods may smite me for this, but sometimes, individuals either need to close or squint an eye, in order to drive the dominance to a specific eye.

Think of it as having to deal with a constantly shifting sight picture, that jumps from left to right unpredictably.

How do I know this? My wife, and several former students have had this trait. Super easy to work through.

Not saying this is the issue, but one of many possibilities.

[BobM]

[BehindBlueI's]

I guess a should have simply asked have you ever had a student you could not get to handle a gun and shoot straight?
Or have you ever had someone you could not cure of the flinch?

Yes.

Shortened version, a woman "trained" and equipped by her husband. DA revolver that was such a poor fit for her hands she used both trigger fingers to pull the trigger. (as in left hand and right hand simultaneously). There was no undoing anything her husband had previously "taught" her. In addition she was very excitable and could not stand still. She bounced up and down at the knee like a kid pretending to ride a horse every time she started shooting. Run away lead for worst student to ever take one of my classes, which, btw, were marketed as intermediate classes dedicated to tactics and thinking through shooting problems that required you to have the basics of gun safety, handling, and marksmanship down before attending. She honestly thought she was up to par because her husband had trained her to the level she was at. Which was about a negative seven, assuming she started at zero.

[Cory]

I taught a fair amount of M9 shooting while I was in the service. I was the "SME" on the M9 during a few unit's train ups prior to deployments, and at my own unit's go-to remedial teacher when we qualed my last couple years in.

I can only recall 2 shooters who were "untrainable" and it was during different quals years apart. It had nothing to do whatsoever with there ability to perform the action required to shoot a pistol, and everything to do with their attitude. Both had failed to qualify twice in a row, hitting less than 2 targets on an M9 pop up range. Both were smaller E4 females who were lamenting that "I tried that and it didn't work" regardless of whatever solution I offered. One was particularly egregious, crying and yelling at me, the E5 who had been ordered to make sure she qual'd. I didn't find it productive to jump her ass about it, she was worked up and we were going to be on the line with live ammo in another 30 minutes. It was the ranges fault, the gun's fault, my fault, and the fault of the United States Army. No fault whatsoever could be placed on her for lack of effort or implementation of feedback. Despite talking to her about how to hold the gun, that she may find it easier to cock the hammer (which is ludacris), that she should rest her arms between targets, or the absolute basics of sight picture, and to be ginger with the trigger she failed to hit a single target.

I was instructed to shoot an extra qual on the lane next to her, with heavy magazines and make sure I missed into a few of her targets so that our unit could pass qual. I did what any good NCO would do. I said "Yes, sir" and shot the lane next to her. Apparently my skill wasn't great enough... she still failed with only a single hit. When taken to task about it by a butter bar I feigned helplessness and apologized that were out of time and the range was going cold.


Point is anyone who WANTS to improve can. The only people who are untrainable are those who don't want to improve, or already know it all.

[Dave Williams]

I taught a fair amount of M9 shooting while I was in the service. I was the "SME" on the M9 during a few unit's train ups prior to deployments, and at my own unit's go-to remedial teacher when we qualed my last couple years in.

I can only recall 2 shooters who were "untrainable" and it was during different quals years apart. It had nothing to do whatsoever with there ability to perform the action required to shoot a pistol, and everything to do with their attitude. Both had failed to qualify twice in a row, hitting less than 2 targets on an M9 pop up range. Both were smaller E4 females who were lamenting that "I tried that and it didn't work" regardless of whatever solution I offered. One was particularly egregious, crying and yelling at me, the E5 who had been ordered to make sure she qual'd. I didn't find it productive to jump her ass about it, she was worked up and we were going to be on the line with live ammo in another 30 minutes. It was the ranges fault, the gun's fault, my fault, and the fault of the United States Army. No fault whatsoever could be placed on her for lack of effort or implementation of feedback. Despite talking to her about how to hold the gun, that she may find it easier to cock the hammer (which is ludacris), that she should rest her arms between targets, or the absolute basics of sight picture, and to be ginger with the trigger she failed to hit a single target.

I was instructed to shoot an extra qual on the lane next to her, with heavy magazines and make sure I missed into a few of her targets so that our unit could pass qual. I did what any good NCO would do. I said "Yes, sir" and shot the lane next to her. Apparently my skill wasn't great enough... she still failed with only a single hit. When taken to task about it by a butter bar I feigned helplessness and apologized that were out of time and the range was going cold.


Point is anyone who WANTS to improve can. The only people who are untrainable are those who don't want to improve, or already know it all.

Yikes!!

Thank you for your service!

[41magfan]

Yes ..... in my 40+ years as a LE firearms trainer (In-service and Academy instruction) I feel like I've seen a little bit of everything. Most were females and their issues had absolutely nothing to with eye dominance, hand size/strength, vision, etc, ..... it was all between their ears.

I know it sounds like bragging, but I enjoy a reputation in my little pond of being able to "fix" most problem shooters, given enough time. I've learned a dozen ways to present the subject matter and then isolate the issues that are serving as stumbling blocks. Eventually, I can usually get the shooter's light bulb to come on, but the mental impediments most of these untrainables demonstrate are beyond the scope of my time and talents.

One of the worst cases I personally dealt with was a female officer that could barely remember the manual of arms for our issued pistols and shotguns from one hour to the next. Someone had to hand-hold her through annual qualification every year and there was never any consideration given to culling her due to the protected status of her race and sex. This went on for decades until she left LE for other issues related to her performance.

[idahojess]

It seems like if the shooter is hitting on the first shot, there are some adjustments with dry fire, ball and dummy type drills that could be done. Maybe a different gun, with an easier trigger.

I've got hand issues, and, for what it's worth, flinching or heeling or anticipating recoil can can continually sneak into my shooting. Gripping the gun for me is very different than for other shooters -- there is no gripping the gun with my weak hand. The gun I'm shooting the best right now is the Sig 365 .380, and I also can do relatively well with my M&P 2.0 (both stock).


I've come up with little adjustments such as gripping an autoloader differently than is the norm, with my weak hand thumb over my strong hand thumb, thumbs down:



Other adjustments such as flexing my strong forearm outwards and putting a little more finger onto the trigger (as taught by Pat MacNamara) seem to help. But it's probably something I have to think about more than most.

[Erick Gelhaus]

This is a question for the good and great instructors, Have you ever had a student that just don't get it, one you have tried every trick you know but just can't get them to shoot?
How do you tell them they need to get a scatter gun?

Sigh ... a shotgun is absotively NOT a solution for people with issues along those lines. SMDH.