untrainable

[DMF13]

are there people who just can't be trained.

Absent a physical or mental disability, the only people who can't be trained, are those who are unwilling to put in the work. That of course assumes the person providing the training is actually capable of providing good instruction.

I was once declared "un-trainable" by some military firearms instructors. Their instruction started, and finished, with "don't slap the trigger," and "cross dominant shooters are screwed." Funny enough, once I got some decent instruction, including an explanation of why cross dominance is irrelevant with pistols, I made rapid improvement.

Have you worked with the student in dry fire (preferably with a pistol mounted optic)? IMO, its best to spend some serious time working on the fundamentals in dry fire, before introducing the stress, and distractions, that come with live fire.

the funny thing with this guy his first round is spot on, then it gets scary. I just think he can''t shake the flinch.

Are you sure its a "flinch?" I ask because a flinch is just as likely on the first shot, as it is on followup shots. Over the years I've seen things attributed to flinching, and/or the aforementioned, "slapping the trigger," when the problem was something else. What is the student doing with their hands, and eyes, as they fire the gun?

If you've diagnosed it as an actual flinch, and not some other problem, I think a true flinch justifies the cost of a Cool Fire system, to desensitize the student to the gun going off.

The noise, and "recoil" of the Cool Fire is enough to get the student used to the sound, and feel, of a gun firing. However, its much easier, less time consuming, and less expensive, for the student to use that 2 or 3 times a week, than it is to go to a range, and use live fire to get desensitized.

[Eric_L]

NM..

[Ed L]

I guess a should have simply asked have you ever had a student you could not get to handle a gun and shoot straight?
Or have you ever had someone you could not cure of the flinch?

What is this person being trained for? Is it a police officer? Is it a citizen wanting to learn how to use a gun?

How bad does this person shoot?

Can they keep 10 rounds on a pie plate sized target at 15 feet?

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've had some scary students in training and in these cases, I mean LE firearms training and have many more similar stories from colleagues in the business. I considered both my cases untrainable based on their attitudes alone. Both hated guns, hated shooting and hated the effort to learn shooting. One was simply fat (monstrously so) and a lazy, excuse churning factory. The other was from the urban ghettos of Dallas and had witnessed her brother murdered with a pistol and that ruled her brain. The first one, I simply ran out of gas to try with her due to her laziness. The second one had me moving heaven and earth to get her to a level of competence. Her head game was one of absolute terror and loathing of the firearm and she wouldn't (couldn't?) get anywhere. Both frustrated my professional training brain.

And...before anybody says I'm mysogynistic or similar, let me describe my "perfect student": an average to tall female, average to large hands, good physical condition and NO prior firearms experience. That student will go further and faster than any ego driven male will.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've seen two women (not making a gender conclusion) cease a training class because they realized using guns was not for them. Not the technical aspect of shooting but because they said using lethal force as not something that they could contemplate doing. One was in a FOF where she came face to face with an opponent (another women by chance) and could not pull the trigger. She said - that was a decision point for her. Another looked at the impact of 00 buckshot on a humanoid paper target and said that using guns were not for her. Slightly different from not being trainable as being a jerk. I regard these two as making a reasoned and acceptable decision.

[DDTSGM]

I've seen two women (not making a gender conclusion) cease a training class because they realized using guns was not for them. Not the technical aspect of shooting but because they said using lethal force as not something that they could contemplate doing. One was in a FOF where she came face to face with an opponent (another women by chance) and could not pull the trigger. She said - that was a decision point for her. Another looked at the impact of 00 buckshot on a humanoid paper target and said that using guns were not for her. Slightly different from not being trainable as being a jerk. I regard these two as making a reasoned and acceptable decision.

I've always felt that a percentage of the officers we trained had the same thoughts.

For the most part they get through the training process by sucking it up and thinking 'I won't ever have to do that' or 'this will never happen to me.'

I'm sure many of them have gone on to be perceived as fine officers and are a credit to their department simply because they have never been called upon to do the fundamental task of protecting.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I've always felt that a percentage of the officers we trained had the same thoughts.

For the most part they get through the training process by sucking it up and thinking 'I won't ever have to do that' or 'this will never happen to me.'

I'm sure many of them have gone on to be perceived as fine officers and are a credit to their department simply because they have never been called upon to do the fundamental task of protecting.

You're describing what I call a "non-shooter" that will not use their firearms under any circumstance. I learned from doing FoF that 10 - 15% of an officer group are non-shooters and I'd bet that number is higher today.

[Cheap Shot]

I'm feeling personally attacked here.....................

[cracker]

What is this person being trained for? Is it a police officer? Is it a citizen wanting to learn how to use a gun?

How bad does this person shoot?

Can they keep 10 rounds on a pie plate sized target at 15 feet?

He is a citizen wanting to learn to use a gun

one thing I do when gauging a student is what i call the plate drill. I have them shoot 5 rounds at 5 yards into a paper plate, then we go to 6 rounds at 6 yard ect.
his last outing he was able to do 7 rounds at 7 yards.
I guess he has improved but at a snails pace.

I haven't given up on him yet..

[Ed L]

He is a citizen wanting to learn to use a gun

one thing I do when gauging a student is what i call the plate drill. I have them shoot 5 rounds at 5 yards into a paper plate, then we go to 6 rounds at 6 yard ect.
his last outing he was able to do 7 rounds at 7 yards.
I guess he has improved but at a snails pace.

I haven't given up on him yet..

What type of gun is he using to achieve the hits, and with what sights?

If you judge him by by Pistol Forum standards, he is not doing well. But if you compare him to what you see at a public range he isn't doing that poorly. I know that doesn't set the bar very high. Some people just don't have a talent for shooting and have various problems which just keep them average or below average.

Since he came to you wanting to learn to use a gun I would just try to get him to be safe and competent in terms of handling the gun even if he never becomes a decent shot.

I have often heard it said that most people who defend themselves with a gun have never had any formal training. This is true. But by the same token I have seen the level of skill of lots of average people at gun ranges, and I would not want to have that low level of skill if I needed it to defend my life.