Tactfully addressing safety concerns

[mmc45414]

Another thing that I relate from personal experience being corrected on something: Don't Be An Asshole

When I first started shooting skeet I was unaware of the rule about not dropping a shell into a broken open gun before stepping into the firing position box. It is not unsafe, and would be acceptable in the field, but it is a rule you are expected to follow, and when you walk onto a skeet field anywhere it is something you should expect people to be doing. And I would have appreciated this being pointed out to me by another rational, helpful adult, rather than the (ETA: old) confrontational dickhead that thought he needed to set me straight. In the following decades I have explained the same rule to many people, and have done so in a manner that I would not expect to tamper their enthusiasm for the recreational activity, doing my best to be the Anti-Dickhead...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Exactly, never told this story but here goes. I had broken my wrist, my ribs and badly sprained my ankle. I was signed up for a handgun class but decided I would do it anyway. My dominant arm had a forearm cast with just a little thumb and finger showing. Ribs taped, ankle in one of those boot things. I would do the class with my non-dominant hand for shooting, reloads, etc. Paul Gomez who was there, referred to me as tough guy for doing the class - haha. Anyway, on the firing line, I had to manipulate new mags, etc. in a lull to replenish your pouches. Thus, I put my G19 down on the ground, facing down range. I had run out of hands. IIRC it was empty. The instructor decided to berate me and asked the others I had dropped the gun. No. Could I have holstered it, perhaps but I didn't. He then told me that he should throw me out of class, blah, blah but he didn't - the guy hosting the class might have to give me my money back - certainly I would have demanded it. Might he ask me if I needed help and suggest a way - NO, not for that MF'er. Never saw him again - which was a good thing.

[P30]

If I were in @0ddl0t 's situation, I would talk with my elderly relative away from the range at a comfortable quite place.

I would try to express 3 important things:

• I like and respect the relative very much.
• Firearms safety, i.e. the 4 Cooper rules. The Cooper rules are as simple as possible. But since all humans make mistakes, they contain a little bit redundancy.
• I would really like to go to the range with you. But for our safety, the Cooper rules are necessary.

Appeal to logic. Appeal to the heart.

BTW:
We all know: The Cooper rules originate from Col. Jeff Cooper, Gunsite. I suppose, they are mandatory in the US military and police.
What you perhaps don't know: They are also mandatory in the German and Swiss military and police. I know because I'm German. Evidence: Cooper rules on a public webpage of the German Bundeswehr (at the end of the page).
(What's that? Maybe: Appeal to authority or common/international sense?)

PS:
Appeal to pragmatism: If we go to the range and ignore a Cooper rule, even if it does not kill us, probably somebody will kick our ass.

[Mas]

Or you might find reference from @Mas about trigger on the finger mishaps for at least one police case, I recall and it's legal consequences. Perhaps a vivid instance of someone in trouble when they didn't have to be, might be informative.

[I]Oh,[I] yeah! It is A Thing. Enough that LAPD somewhere around 1970 made all duty revolvers DAO, as NYPD did subsequently. When Captain John Cerar was head of the NYPD FTU, he told me they had about six UDs a year double action with finger on trigger being the culprit. Montreal went DAO after Crown v. Gossett (Manslaughter charge, ultimately acquitted at trial, never established whether or not the Model 10 was cocked but finger definitely on trigger).

Also we saw false allegations of the officer having cocked the hammer, setting the stage for a Manslaughter case. GA v. Crumbley, fortunately no-billed by the grand jury, and the classic FL v. Alvarez with an eight or nine week Manslaughter trial that ended in acquittal, triggering a race riot. Between the shooting and the trial Miami PD ordered all their Model 64s made DAO. When the union asked for autoloaders shortly thereafter, the Chief was hoisted by his own petard because he said "Sure, when you can show me a double action only auto," and BATF promptly declared the Glock to be such, allowing Miami PD to become the first real flagship department for the brand. Target-weight trigger pulls in striker guns can also be a problem: Santibanes v. Tomball involved a UD from privately-owned Gen3 Glock 21 with 3.5/4.5 lb connector and standard trigger spring; the sergeant was cleared by the grand jury but the lawsuit cost the city $450K: about $200K in legal fees before a date for trial was even set, and a quarter-mil out of court settlement.

[HCM]

Semi-related: After sex discrimination litigation over women's higher firearm training failure rates, the LASD switched from the Beretta 92F to the M&P for new recruits in 2011. The smaller grip and consistent trigger did the trick, dropping remediation rates from 61% to 17%.

In 2013 the LASD began issuing the M&P to existing deputies after an 8 hour conversion course and NDs began to rise. By 2014, the M&P had been adopted by ~1/3 of the 9,000-strong force yet was involved in 90% of NDs.

Attachment 114357Attachment 114358Attachment 114359Attachment 114360

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/d...e%20Report.pdf

A member here who worked at the LASD range has mentioned that report / data has some issues, however, it does appear that agency basically retained their old school “finger belongs on the trigger” methods when they transitioned from DA Revolvers to the TDA Beretta. They are far from the only agency who had that bite them when they transitioned from TDA/DAO to striker fired.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If the old folks are tight on money - the costs Mas mentioned might be an eye opener about a ND to be avoided.

[AMC]

A member here who worked at the LASD range has mentioned that report / data has some issues, however, it does appear that agency basically retained their old school “finger belongs on the trigger” methods when they transitioned from DA Revolvers to the TDA Beretta. They are far from the only agency who had that bite them when they transitioned from TDA/DAO to striker fired.

He shared the reports with me when I was in my old job. Both the internal and Grand Jury type reports. It was a litany of 'What not to do' in a transition course, which our friend readily admits. Definitely true that the officers coming from DA Berettas experienced more NDs than recruits trained on a striker though. Surprising to no one with a brain.

[0ddl0t]

Update: It was a little awkward, but taking video worked. Thanks PF!

[Ed L]

Oddlot, what you are doing is very commendable.

Maybe get a tiny piece of velcro and glue it above the trigger guard or someplace on the frame so that the person can have a positive register for their curled trigger finger there when not firing. Try to work with them on that. You mentioned that they had some type of hand problem that would make keeping a straight trigger finger a problem. A tactile register for where to keep his trigger finger when not on the trigger might help, along with practice at it.

But first you will have to get buy-in from him.

[BillSWPA]

Plenty of good software an d coaching advice above.

Normally I would hesitate to recommend DAO with a long, heavy trigger to an individual with hand issues, but given the skill of this individual, this case is the exception.