Predictions

[KevH]

@KevH or @SoCalDep probably have good info, but I've never heard of recruits or officers doing worse with a dot.

OIS stats have a lot of variables unrelated to sights, but again, hit ratios won't go down.

I have no idea the answer to Question 1 because we haven't had an OIS since switching (knocks on wood).

The answer to Question 2 is that proper training with the optic (a really big deal) equates to a big improvement in score.

We don't force anyone to carry an optic, but about 85% of the department now chooses to. Our department wide qual course starts at the 25 yard line, moves up to the 15, then the 10, then the 7, and ends with point shooting at 3 yards. You get three consecutive tries to pass. If you fail all three you get benched (taken out of patrol or your assignment), put on a PIP and sent to remediation. Typically we have at least a couple people a year make it to a PIP.

Since we started issuing the optic, I have only had two people not pass on their first attempt at the qual. The two that didn't easily passed on try #2. Nobody has made it to try #3. Nobody has been put on a PIP.

Our SWAT pistol qualification course is much harder than the patrol one. It historically has been used to weed people out in the selection process. The SWAT guys are now complaining that their pistol course is too easy and that with optics everyone can pass it.

We call that a clue.

[KevH]

...while on this topic.

As I think most of you know, LE departments are more than capable of completely screwing up introducing new technology. I think a lot of us remember when WML were introduced for handguns and the complete sh*tshow that was...dudes carrying Insight M3 lights in separate pouches and putting it on their loaded gun for a building search and taking it off again, guys using their trigger finger and ND'ing into walls, all sorts of shenanigans. Now WML's are considered the norm in LE rather than the exception. Training and time did that.

If you just buy an optic and stick it on a gun and say, "Go forth and shoot," as I'm sure some departments will want to do, you are setting yourself up for major failure.

We started down the optic pistol optic road in 2015. Some of us ran one the whole time, some of us gave up and stuck with irons, some of us (like me) have gone back and forth. Lots of training classes, lots of practice, and lots of trial and error. Ultimately, we saw the value in it which is why we invested the money (a lot of money) and the time.

We did an eight hour CA POST-approved optic transition course. Why 8? That was the magic number of how long we needed to get the info across we needed to, how long we could keep an attention span and prevent fatigue, and what we as an agency could afford. Remember, this is a class for everyone, not just your interested parties and gun people. A 16 hour course was going to wear people out.

I'm fairly ambivalent right now about the optic for myself. It's really great for me at 25 yards and back, but it doesn't do much at all any closer than that and in fact can sometimes slow me down a little. It is also something else that can go wrong on the gun and that I have to futz with. I've also spent a lifetime shooting iron sights, tend to shoot more than your average bear, and somehow still have decent eye sight. It doesn't mean I'm anti optic at all. On the contrary, I think they are the future...but then again I haven't run a WML on a handgun for a couple years because after a lifetime of using the Rogers-Surefire method I still find myself doing it instinctively whether I have a WML on my pistol or not. Old habits die hard.

POST, LE academies, and LE organizations in general are big ships and sometimes its hard to change course...even when it is needed. For the next few years there is going to be institutional resistance to pistol optics...especially with the current old guard that can't see the value, don't want to spend the effort to change themselves, and don't like the concept for a plethora of dumb reasons. It's to be expected.

[AMC]

@Erick Gelhaus and @ KevH.....since I'm completely out of the game now, I'll go ahead and say it. CA POST has become, effectively, the largest single obstacle to improving police training across the board. Not the only one, by any means. But the single largest one. There's some good folks there trying to do good things (Steve was trying hard on the firearms front), but the institution is hidebound and pathologically resistant to change. And the Regional Coordinators are often the biggest problem. There.....I said it.

[HCM]

My understanding is that it was the other agencies protesting HSI’s use of RDS’ on their issued handguns during CITP because the HSI recruits started to consistently take home the top shooter awards. FLETC actually told the other agencies to pound sand since they were free to issue RDS’ to their recruits as well if they were unhappy that the HSI recruits were consistently outshooting them. Gadfly or @HCM would know more than me about that though.

This is correct.

Which is why it’s so funny FLETC concurrently started offering an export pistol optics class for state and local.

[Erick Gelhaus]

@Erick Gelhaus and @ KevH.....since I'm completely out of the game now, I'll go ahead and say it. CA POST has become, effectively, the largest single obstacle to improving police training across the board. Not the only one, by any means. But the single largest one. There's some good folks there trying to do good things (Steve was trying hard on the firearms front), but the institution is hidebound and pathologically resistant to change. And the Regional Coordinators are often the biggest problem. There.....I said it.

You are far too kind.

They are pathological. POST is the worst sort of self-licking poop cone in existence. My classes have been "POST" approved & certified in other states in very short timelines, with minimal work by all parties. Cal POST? It's all about some bovine fecal matter process that is process, not product, driven.

Never mind the asinine amount of time they take for certification. Unless they want to orally copulate an academy director.

They'll tell providers they don't need POST cert but then demand to know why agencies aren't going to "certified" training.

[HCM]

Was wrapping up a class and we got to talking about.........dots on pistols. Students were suckling at the teat of "Red dots are awesome" and I asked some questions.

1. When everyone's got a dot on their duty gun...will gunfight hit ratios be the same, worse, or better?

2. When everyone's got a dot on their duty gun....will qual scores be the same, worse, or better?

Not many answers, some foot shuffling and loss of eye contact.

If the gear isn't helping officers, how can it be any good?

My agency (14k sworn) issued everyone red dots two years ago. It’s mandatory for new officers, it was optional for our existing staff, but about 95% now have red dots.

We have about 300 shooters locally. We saw an 10-20% increase in qualifications scores and two years later we’ve maintained those scores. More significantly, Locally we have not had anyone using an optic fail to qualify since the switch. Our agency mandated a minimum of eight hours of transition training and gave the option for individual offices to expand that to 16 or 24 hours. Locally we provided a 16 hour (2 day) transition class.

We haven’t had an OIS locally since the switch.

However, we did force on force with RDS in our agency instructor program and the hit ratios were higher than what I’ve seen in other instructor classes, particularly in low light.

[KevH]

@Erick Gelhaus @AMC

You guys are retired and can speak your mind. I'm still in the game so I'll stay quiet.

I will say that CA POST has been dealt a bit of a raw deal by our legislature recently and some of the things they are being instructed to do by statute is way outside their purview and abilities.

[AMC]

@Erick Gelhaus @AMC

You guys are retired and can speak your mind. I'm still in the game so I'll stay quiet.

I will say that CA POST has been dealt a bit of a raw deal by our legislature recently and some of the things they are being instructed to do by statute is way outside their purview and abilities.

To quote the Immortal Rip Torn from the 'Gone with the Wind' of B grade 80s action flicks: "Shit, Jack....the only thing worse than a politician is a child molester."

POST is a totally dysfunctional, self-perpetuating bureaucracy corrupted by its focus on process over all. The California State Legislature is the 9th Circle of Hell.

[Erick Gelhaus]

The issues I'm thinking about did not come from the Legislature.

[jlw]

My understanding is that it was the other agencies protesting HSI’s use of RDS’ on their issued handguns during CITP because the HSI recruits started to consistently take home the top shooter awards. FLETC actually told the other agencies to pound sand since they were free to issue RDS’ to their recruits as well if they were unhappy that the HSI recruits were consistently outshooting them. Gadfly or @HCM would know more than me about that though.

I went to FLETC’s FI class just before the plague hit in 2020, and we were not allowed to use optics on our RIFLES. Nobody had one on a pistol.

Only two classes ago, GPSTC started allowing PMOs in academy classes, but the agencies were required to get the cadets up to speed on the optic.

I don’t know what has happened with basic academy scores.