Awesome write-up. Thanks for taking the time.
Awesome write-up. Thanks for taking the time.
Some people call me Hendricks.
Good stuff, DocGKR! I always look forward to your writeups.
Robert Vogel is very much on my short list to train with. In fact, the idea of driving out to Ohio for a private lesson is interesting...
-C
My blog: The Way of the Multigun
I'm encountering a variation of this. I shoot the M&P9fs, am a RH shooter, and recently discovered how much more stable things are when I get the social finger of my LH into the corner formed by the trigger guard and the social finger of my firing hand...vice my LH index finger in the same spot. That puts my support-hand index finger further forward on the trigger guard, but also puts that hand higher on the gun, and looks similar to what's shown in the 2nd image of your original post in this thread.
In my case, however, the meat at the base of my off hand thumb is occasionally impinging on the slide stop/release, but UPWARD, causing the gun to lock open in the middle of a string of fire.
Same circumstance occurred with a G19 sporting a Vickers slide stop, which ceased when I swapped back to the stock part. I don't have the option of going with a lower-profile slide stop/release with an M&P, soooo...
In my case, I found that pointing the support-hand thumb downward acts to pull the meat of the base of my off-hand thumb away from the frame, and therefore away from the stop/release. I'm not consistently applying it, yet, but given that this is about a 3-week-old experiment, I'm optimistic. The accuracy improvement under speed is something I can't argue with, and I think I'm on the right path to getting that AND decreased splits. Baby steps.
Doc, was the thumb-forward-and-down aspect discussed in that way at all, or was it simply a detail you noted? I'm finding the same gap between my hands at the butt of the gun that you mentioned, but my support wrist is also absolutely locked out...when I get it right in the first place...
Vogel stated he was not too concerned with the exact position of this thumbs, as long as sufficient bilateral counter-torque was being applied to control the pistol and keep it as flat as possible in recoil.
JMS,
I found the same solution. I've been shooting this way for about 2 years, and I haven't noticed any negative effects of having my thumb pointed downwards. My left hand isn't quite as high as I could get it, but any higher and I get occasional failures to lock back. I'd rather guarantee lock back than shave a few more hundredths off my splits.
My wife and I spent the day Tuesday doing a private tutorial with Robert Vogel at his home range in OH. We each shot near 1,000 rounds and enjoyed our time with Robert a lot. Besides his instruction, seeing him demo each drill was extremely valuable in terms of showing what is possible. Highly recommended.
Biggest take away was Robert's thoughts on the ideal grip, with your dominant hand as aggressively high as possible, support hand as far forward as possible, along with torquing in with each hand to control recoil.