USPSA 15 round production survey

[CleverNickname]

But think about 10 years from now. Irons will be antiquated and why have 5 iron pistol divisions with 5% of the total membership?

I think you WILL need another division and to get rid of antiquated ones.

Think of it as a shift in divisions.

But other than the magazine capacity, what would be the difference in equipment between the current Carry Optics rules and your proposed Production Optics?

[JCS]

There doesn't need to be yet another division. But dropping CO from a 140mm mag length down to 15 rounds to match Production 15 would make sense.

No way. That would kill the popularity of the division. CO is the best thing USPSA has done division wise.

[JCN]

But other than the magazine capacity, what would be the difference in equipment between the current Carry Optics rules and your proposed Production Optics?

Light guns.

Make a 30-33oz weight max or a 4.5” barrel length max.

Basically something more “carry” like.

Kind of like an IDPA CCP but with optics.

Basically CO is middle of the road. LO gets mag wells and huge thumb rests.

Make a less gamey division with lower cap to be downstream.

[YVK]

USPSA has long demonstrated its willingness to live happily thereafter with all kinds of dead divisions so I am not sure why pretend they care about Production. With effectively unlimited gun mass, no trigger pull weight restrictions, and anything goes internal mods it is as gamer as any other minor pf pistol division, and those are endowed with 140 mm mags. 15 capacity is a half step when the division is fully dead. 140 is a historic standard for gamer's mags and they should stick with it as long as they keep on creating more and more gamer rulesets and divisions. If they did bother to develop more practical divisions as discussed above, then we can talk about mag capacity in more depth.

[Clusterfrack]

Light guns.

Make a 30-33oz weight max or a 4.5” barrel length max.

Basically something more “carry” like.

Kind of like an IDPA CCP but with optics.

Basically CO is middle of the road. LO gets mag wells and huge thumb rests.

Make a less gamey division with lower cap to be downstream.

Like what IPSC tried to do with Production Optics and Optics Light? I could get behind that. Even more so if there was a minimum 1st pull trigger weight requirement.

USPSA has long demonstrated its willingness to live happily thereafter with all kinds of dead divisions so I am not sure why pretend they care about Production. With effectively unlimited gun mass, no trigger pull weight restrictions, and anything goes internal mods it is as gamer as any other minor pf pistol division, and those are endowed with 140 mm mags. 15 capacity is a half step when the division is fully dead. 140 is a historic standard for gamer's mags and they should stick with it as long as they keep on creating more and more gamer rulesets and divisions. If they did bother to develop more practical divisions as discussed above, then we can talk about mag capacity in more depth.

15 round mags prevent the arms race we now have in CO, and always had in Lim and Open. And the whole point of Production is Minor, Low Cap, which makes for significantly different strategy than High Cap, and especially High Cap major. I still think Production 10 is the best and most difficult division, but voted for Production15 in the hope that it will bring more people back.

[Jim Watson]

Open is grotesque, Production is a travesty. Low caps are low and fading.

I would run two divisions, what would now be Limited Irons and Limited Optic.
20 rounds, just enough for a Medium CoF.
Unitary power factor, about 9mm NATO.

[JCN]

Open is grotesque, Production is a travesty. Low caps are low and fading.

I would run two divisions, what would now be Limited Irons and Limited Optic.
20 rounds, just enough for a Medium CoF.
Unitary power factor, about 9mm NATO.

I like this idea!

I have no doubt that high cap is being driven by the stage design creep.

I don’t mind a 10 round cap in IDPA because stages are 18 rounds, I don’t aim to miss and I always have to do one reload anyway.

But for a 32 round hosefest with no good reloading places and forced standing reloads x 3… no thanks in USPSA.

At least with 15 round cap, I could get through most COF with one reload.

[YVK]

15 round mags prevent the arms race we now have in CO

How? I see mag capacity as inconsequential in arms racing when compared to allowing 47 oz CZs to wear 9 oz LOK grips and still be OK, thumb rests actual or thinly veiled, gaping magwells, and no restrictions on trigger weights. Whatever capacity they choose, everyone will have the same number of rounds within the division, +/-1. CO/LO, Limited, whatever, everyone spent 35 bucks for a mag extension for each mag, the race is over, everyone is on the same playing field. If the effort is to increase Production participation rates relative to its current dismal state, I think the answer is not in looking at why three remaining participants continue to shoot it. By now 140 mm capacity has been a part of a success recipe for two minor pf divisions. 15 rounds to me is a non-incremental step.

[Clusterfrack]

How? I see mag capacity as inconsequential in arms racing when compared to allowing 47 oz CZs to wear 9 oz LOK grips and still be OK, thumb rests actual or thinly veiled, gaping magwells, and no restrictions on trigger weights. Whatever capacity they choose, everyone will have the same number of rounds within the division, +/-1. CO/LO, Limited, whatever, everyone spent 35 bucks for a mag extension for each mag, the race is over, everyone is on the same playing field. If the effort is to increase Production participation rates relative to its current dismal state, I think the answer is not in looking at why three remaining participants continue to shoot it. By now 140 mm capacity has been a part of a success recipe for two minor pf divisions. 15 rounds to me is a non-incremental step.

This is turning into an interesting discussion. Here's how I would rank importance of guns and division rules:

Ranked based on making the shooting easier/faster/lower risk:

1. Optics
2. High cap
3. Major scoring
4. Comp
5. Light/short trigger
6. Weight
7. Magwell

[CleverNickname]

Light guns.

Make a 30-33oz weight max or a 4.5” barrel length max.

Basically something more “carry” like.

Kind of like an IDPA CCP but with optics.

Basically CO is middle of the road. LO gets mag wells and huge thumb rests.

Make a less gamey division with lower cap to be downstream.

That seems like a good division for IDPA (since it only has one optics division and is supposedly the more "realistic" game), but I don't see the desire for it in USPSA.