USPSA Scoring

[Sal Picante]

I think the times on the plates are a bit ambitious, but yeah, neat thought experiment...
Since the HF is up there, it seems to skews it to saving time...

My math was betting 60/7.5 = 8 vs 50/6 = 8.3 & less risk...

[Clusterfrack]

I think the times on the plates are a bit ambitious, but yeah, neat thought experiment...
Since the HF is up there, it seems to skews it to saving time...

My math was betting 60/7.5 = 8 vs 50/6 = 8.3 & less risk...

You did say plates but in my brain they were full size poppers…

[ECK]

If this was a USPSA Speed Shoot, the reload would need to occur before the 9th
shot and be a per shot procedural penalty until the reload is performed. That would skew the HF calculus.

[jrobinson]

Fun problem! This is going to make people think HF scoring is way too complicated... It's really not, and stuff like this isn't worth worrying about until you get to a fairly high level or you are a total geek.

Let's say:

3s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.25s reload to steel
1.25s for 5 remaining steel
Dropped a couple Charlies: 56pts
56pts/5.5s = 10.1HF

Skipping the reload:
3s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.5s for 6 steel
56 pts - 10 penalty = 46pts
46pts/6s = 10.2HF

With a 10HF, a 10 point penalty is equivalent to: 10pts / ( 10pts/s ) = 1s, so unless you can reload in under a 1s it's just barely not worth doing the reload (not reloading saves 1.25s - 0.25s = 1.0s)

However, if your times are:

4s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.5s reload to steel
1.5s for 5 remaining steel
Dropped a couple Charlies: 56pts
56pts/7s = 8HF

Skipping the reload:
4s for the Blake drill (3 paper)
1.8s for 6 steel
56 pts - 10 penalty = 46pts
46pts/5.8s = 7.93HF

With a 8HF, a 10 point penalty is equivalent to: 10pts / ( 8pts/s ) = 1.25s. Not doing the reload saves 1.5s - 0.3s = 1.2s, so it's just barely worth doing the reload.

However, the lowest risk approach is NOT doing the reload because that's one more thing that could go wrong.

Yeah, my skill level isn't quite to this point.. YET. I'm still in the mindset of, "ok, if I walk this direction, make sure your barrel doesn't break the 180" haha

[Sal Picante]

If this was a USPSA Speed Shoot, the reload would need to occur before the 9th
shot and be a per shot procedural penalty until the reload is performed. That would skew the HF calculus.

Yup - that's why USPSA has rules that make sense. however, I did say, "You're shooting a Hit Factor-scored match (outlaw USPSA)"

[ECK]

@Les you still bring up a good point tho, sometimes it’s better to eat the penalty for not doing something.

Disappearing targets are a good example that are scored NPM and no penalty for not engaging them, provided you activated the mechanism prior to the last shot.

However, putting a single Drop Turner out there IMO is dumb and it’s better to put a static target near the DT so it makes more sense (usually) to pick up the DT.

Or not. Sometimes it’s fun to watch people do the calculus in their head during the walk-thru…

[Slavex]

great discussion on HF. I don't typically try and figure out a HF when I look at a stage, I only care about time. I've gotten pretty good at estimating how long guys like Eric Grauffel take to shoot stages after shooting in Europe for 6 years in the summer, and I try to push myself based on that. I don't factor in anything other than A's in my planning either, just accept what I get when done. However, sometimes, on a stage where a reload is necessary or required, I've looked at the penalties to see which is the better plan, and sometimes, it's better to take the penalty. A good example that actually worked that a reload was worth it, was a stage I saw from Australia with my buddy Paul. Unloaded start, (Production there like here in Canada and the USA is 10 rounds in the mag), 1 steel, 4 paper and one appearing paper target, 11 rounds required. He decided to not reload for the 11th shot (2nd shot on the appearing target) and take the miss and lack of an A on that target. He shot 10 Alpha in 5.31 with a HF of 7.533. If he did the reload in 1.5 seconds he'd have gotten an 8.0764, he could have even taken 1.80 second reload and come out slightly higher. We spent probably 2 weeks arguing about that on Facebook lol. Risk vs reward, calculating hit factors etc. My position was, shoot the 10 shots, do the reload, and if you land it in a good time, take the 11th shot. If you wobble it, don't shoot. Some argued for doing the reload after hitting the plate/activator (first target most shot), but I argued then you were absolutely risking the stage if you screwed up the reload, doing it at the end had gave you the least risk.
I've watched people walking stages and standing back with calculators or phones calculating HFs and such but just can't bring myself to do that on most stages, it's just a weird way to plan I find.

[Sal Picante]

great discussion on HF. I don't typically try and figure out a HF when I look at a stage, I only care about time. I've gotten pretty good at estimating how long guys like Eric Grauffel take to shoot stages after shooting in Europe for 6 years in the summer, and I try to push myself based on that. I don't factor in anything other than A's in my planning either, just accept what I get when done. However, sometimes, on a stage where a reload is necessary or required, I've looked at the penalties to see which is the better plan, and sometimes, it's better to take the penalty. A good example that actually worked that a reload was worth it, was a stage I saw from Australia with my buddy Paul. Unloaded start, (Production there like here in Canada and the USA is 10 rounds in the mag), 1 steel, 4 paper and one appearing paper target, 11 rounds required. He decided to not reload for the 11th shot (2nd shot on the appearing target) and take the miss and lack of an A on that target. He shot 10 Alpha in 5.31 with a HF of 7.533. If he did the reload in 1.5 seconds he'd have gotten an 8.0764, he could have even taken 1.80 second reload and come out slightly higher. We spent probably 2 weeks arguing about that on Facebook lol. Risk vs reward, calculating hit factors etc. My position was, shoot the 10 shots, do the reload, and if you land it in a good time, take the 11th shot. If you wobble it, don't shoot. Some argued for doing the reload after hitting the plate/activator (first target most shot), but I argued then you were absolutely risking the stage if you screwed up the reload, doing it at the end had gave you the least risk.
I've watched people walking stages and standing back with calculators or phones calculating HFs and such but just can't bring myself to do that on most stages, it's just a weird way to plan I find.

Sometimes, when magazine count permits, doing the 'ol "double reload" makes it worth it... I found this old video of me doing that a match in Oak Park, IL - it worked out that day.



That was one of those stages where you look at the drop-turner (NPMs) and calculate it as a 45pt stage in 8s or a 55 pt stage in 8.5 seconds... You know the HF is going to be low(ish), especially with the table start/empty gun, so getting any additional points is seemingly worth it...
It was handy to guess/estimate the HHFs before shooting - knowing that data just helps determine if you should take the bet or not; if you should push or hold...

[DMF13]

I look forward the day when calculations, such as those mentioned above, are actually a real factor in how well I do at a match. I'm not there yet, but "I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard."

[Sal Picante]

I look forward the day when calculations, such as those mentioned above, are actually a real factor in how well I do at a match. I'm not there yet, but "I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard."

I hardly knew which end of the gun the bullet came out of...
I've been every USPSA classifications: U, D, C, B, A, M, GM.
I never thought I'd be a GM.
I never thought I'd win IDPA Nationals.
I never thought I'd be able to train with Eric Grauffel and have any of it make sense.

Don't sell yourself short of anything. Anything is possible.