How important is “wear whatever you want to work” to you?

[HeavyDuty]

Back in the late 80s or very early 90s I interviewed for an P&C underwriting position at Safeco Insurance. At the time men were expected to dress in subdued two piece suits with only white or pale blue shirts and somber ties, and the few non-secretarial women were required to wear suits with skirts and white blouses.

Jackets were required at all times when away from your desk. Before and after work time and during breaks music was played over the intercom. When the music stopped, you were expected to be at your desk hard at work.

When they offered, I passed.

[DDTSGM]

Kind of tough to sell the, "back in my days when Americans were red--blooded and nobody complained about working extra for free or getting the black lung" line....even to people in the management chain.

I know you read better than that. Not what I was saying at all.

The miners that worked and got black lung really had no choice in the matter, they were pretty much at the mercy of companies who gave two shits less about them.

Even if they had been able to escape the poverty of the area, they likely wouldn't have many opportunities that didn't put them back in the clutches of yet another uncaring corporation.

We can point to many industries through the 20th, and into the 21st Century that have treated their employees as chattel. Hard to expect any willing loyalty from workers in those circumstances.

Most of the folks posting in this thread aren't working for companies that match that profile. With that in mind, some of the responses have seemed rather self-absorbed. I say that with the belief that you need to watch out for number one first, but also need to understand it all isn't about you.

I don't know how you view your work, but I view my entire work career a continuous string of blessed events. I honestly remember very few days that I didn't look forward to going to work until the last year of my career when my goals and the goals of the workplace, and my co-workers diverged. But, because I had always taken care of number one first and put in a little extra work over the years, I was able to leave when I wanted, on my terms.

I sounds trite, but I do feel sorry for those who work merely for the money, that was never my experience.

[TGS]

I know you read better than that. Not what I was saying at all.

The miners that worked and got black lung really had no choice in the matter, they were pretty much at the mercy of companies who gave two shits less about them.

Even if they had been able to escape the poverty of the area, they likely wouldn't have many opportunities that didn't put them back in the clutches of yet another uncaring corporation.

We can point to many industries through the 20th, and into the 21st Century that have treated their employees as chattel. Hard to expect any willing loyalty from workers in those circumstances.

Most of the folks posting in this thread aren't working for companies that match that profile.

It's called tongue-in-cheek. It's 2022...I obviously wasn't saying that people are actually getting black lung. Come on...I know you can read better than that.

I don't know how you view your work, but I view my entire work career a continuous string of blessed events.

How I view my work isn't entirely relevant, as I've always been in a public service position with the exception of high school and college jobs. The vast majority of people work under different circumstances, and their interest to the company starts and ends at the paycheck.

And, back to the point, the average worker isn't going to feel a need to do something "just because" if there isn't some sort of buy-in. Hence the instructive video clip from Office Space, "why should I bust my ass so that Initech can ship a few extra units when I don't see a dime of that?"

And, tying that all back into the thread because we are getting off track with shifting goalposts here....the sales guy may have a motivation to dress a certain way. People not in that position may not have the same motivations to dress that same way, particularly because theres no "return" on doing so.

[BehindBlueI's]

I sounds trite, but I do feel sorry for those who work merely for the money, that was never my experience.

I worked IT for roughly 3 years, going from night help desk to Business Process Management. There was zero dress code. I hated it pretty quickly, zero sense of purpose or contribution to society as a whole. Maybe because I worked for a warranty company, which is half a step up from a ponzi scheme, but the fact I could wear whatever I wanted never really felt like a big deal to me.

Anywho, I think this thread has been interesting for a couple reasons. First, I suspect it's a microcosm of internet interactions. I suspect nobody in this thread would get so worked up and entrenched in such a low stakes conversation in real life, but it gets real worked up online because reasons.

As for what people like to wear, I wear a suit during my regular hours, and unlike many in this thread I like to do so. As long as I have a jacket 'available' and a tie on, I'm within standard but I still wear the full suit. When I'm on call I can show up in whatever I want. Some of the others take that real literally, but I still put on some decent khakis, button up sport shirt, and sport coat. I just skip the tie because at 0415 with an hour of sleep I don't want to delay my response enough to fumble through one, plus I don't turn on the light so I don't wake my wife. "Did you get dressed in the dark?" Yes! The fewer things I have to match the better. Did I mention I'm colorblind and it's pronounced in low light? Blue/green/gray are all samey-same. I wear suits to meetings sometimes, sometimes sport coat, and once again I could wear literally anything to several of them. Intelligence sharing meetings are hilarious in the spectrum of guys who look like they just strolled out of a biker bar, suits, uniforms, and everything in the middle.

But I still dress up a bit to fly, because I think it's special to have a big metal tube whisk me through the air to distant lands, in relative comfort, at speeds unimaginable throughout the vast vast majority of human history. Others dress like they need socks at 2am so they are stumbling to the nearest Wal-mart. Nothing to me, but I do feel a little sorry for the loss of magic in their worldview. And I don't wear shorts. Children and women wear shorts. Men don't unless actively engaged in sport or in the water. (Relics of a hillbilly upbringing, I gives a shit if you like to wear shorts and you don't have to attempt to convince me how manly your shorts are.) I'd have to have a pretty substantial raise to wear polyester shorts and a t-shirt. I'd literally rather wear a mascot costume at a theme park or a rodeo clown outfit. At least then I wouldn't be recognizable.

[SecondsCount]

When I started for the company that I worked for now, it was owned by one guy who was okay to work for most of the time but had a few control issues. He had a dress code, shirt must have buttons, polo would be the minimal shirt you could wear, and no jeans or pants with rivets.

I was in an engineering support role so most of the time I sat in a cubicle and wore dockers. One day I had to go sort through a couple shelves of old equipment in the warehouse and wore some older jeans to work. He made a thing about it when I passed him in the break room and when I told him what the deal was, he relaxed a little.

15 years later, he decided to retire and sell the business. He hung around for about a year and assisted with the transition. The first day the new owners and a few of their management walked in to a meeting, all wearing jeans, I thought the old owner was going to have a heart attack and he actually gave them a hard time about it.

Their attitude was that you should dress appropriately when going to see customers. Last year one of the upper management went on some customer calls with me. I dressed in a nice button down and dockers, and leather shoes. He showed up in a wrinkled pullover, a worn pair of jeans, and what looked to be a pair of hiking type boots. It was really hard to introduce him as my manager when I out dressed him.

[Mercworx]

What I wear to work doesn't really rate at all with any concerns I have about a job.

This is how I feel about it as well. There is almost nothing that would make me take a pay cut with one exception and that’s remote work. Even then, 10k max I’d say.

[mmc45414]

the sales guy may have a motivation to dress a certain way.

And that motivation is that we are coin-operated, and everyone knows we are coin-operated, so if you look like you don't have any coin people understandably assess that nobody must be buying what you are selling.

Sometimes this backfires when combined with dress codes that emphasize garments the wearer would not otherwise wear, so they skimp and end up with shitty looking "dress" clothes. I have fallen into this, I can remember going out for drinks after work on Fridays and look around in the bar and realize all the single guys are wearing their best shit and I am wearing something that just squeaked by the rules because I didn't have any customer visits.

It also backfires when people with poor taste (my first boss in sales) spend opulently on stuff that is gaudy (pinky rings IMO, are never a good look) and wearing suits that don't fit anymore because it is still pretty new and you spent $500 (in eighties money) on it.

[orionz06]

And that motivation is that we are coin-operated, and everyone knows we are coin-operated, so if you look like you don't have any coin people understandably assess that nobody must be buying what you are selling.

Sometimes this backfires when combined with dress codes that emphasize garments the wearer would not otherwise wear, so they skimp and end up with shitty looking "dress" clothes. I have fallen into this, I can remember going out for drinks after work on Fridays and look around in the bar and realize all the single guys are wearing their best shit and I am wearing something that just squeaked by the rules because I didn't have any customer visits.

It also backfires when people with poor taste (my first boss in sales) spend opulently on stuff that is gaudy (pinky rings IMO, are never a good look) and wearing suits that don't fit anymore because it is still pretty new and you spent $500 (in eighties money) on it.

That's my beef with dress codes. You can mandate what they wear, but not that they dress well. Our CEO took issue with me at one point wearing jeans, nice boots, a sweater, and a dress shirt under it when coworkers were wearing garbage clothes overall. I was polite when I asked "but am I dressed poorly or outside the intent of the dress code?" Turns out I was not.

[mmc45414]

That's my beef with dress codes. You can mandate what they wear, but not that they dress well. Our CEO took issue with me at one point wearing jeans, nice boots, a sweater, and a dress shirt under it when coworkers were wearing garbage clothes overall. I was polite when I asked "but am I dressed poorly or outside the intent of the dress code?" Turns out I was not.

I agree, and it seems like whenever I finally get my act (wardrobe) together it changes...
I have a bunch of nice slacks that will probably not ever see much use again.
Years ago when the software company I was at announced a dress code revision in a company wide meeting one of my collogues leaned over and whispered that she had just spent over a thousand dollars (all of this is worse, IME, for women) and I replied that I had just ordered fifteen new dress shirts. One thing about all those button-down oxford cloth dress shirts is that they are still button-down oxford cloth dress shirts, when the standard for this company became some kind of logo wear I saved enough shirts for weddings and funerals and had the rest embroidered with the company logo. With ~3 years to go I will not need them for my next job, likely to only involve distilling spirits into urine.

[Default.mp3]

Anyways, I guess I think it's backwards to think of "paycut" for casual/business casual wear. Informal is the norm these days and formal is the outlier. To require formal dresscode requires substantial investment from your employees and therefore needs the financial backing to do so.

Obligatory pedantic correction post from your local pedant:

• Informal dress in the West is the business suit
• Semi-formal is black tie or stroller suit, depending on the time of day
• Formal is white tie or morning dress, depending on the time of day