Haggard and Weems on Cops Pointing Guns

[Utm]

It seemed to me to make sense behind the thigh / leg....I figured he could always re-holster the gun, no harm to foul.......saw It done many times on the street.

I think that you could also just practice drawing from your duty holster and be just as fast

[AMC]

Worked in the city for years and saw many LEO present their weapons in the Covert Carry Position...gun drawn, pointing down and placed behind the thigh / leg......always thought about this one.....anyone.

No. Just......no. The 1970s are calling. They want their police gun handling nonsense back.

The gun belongs in the holster unless you anticipate immediately needing to shoot. Rather than the hidden dangle, how about keep your hand on the gun in the holster.

[TGS]

Worked in the city for years and saw many LEO present their weapons in the Covert Carry Position...gun drawn, pointing down and placed behind the thigh / leg......always thought about this one.....anyone.

This is a tactic developed in the days when it was still legal for a cop to shoot someone simply for running, and when the retention holster du jour meant you probably would not be able to get your gun out reliably under stress. Additionally, even if your service revolver was out and you decided you didn't need to shoot someone, using the gun itself as an intermediate force adjunct was still acceptable and widely practiced. So, the utility and necessity of a preemptive draw was quite different than today, as was the legal threshold to shoot someone instead of being obliged to reholster under stress and use intermediate force.

The laws we police under are dramatically different and our gear is also in another league in terms of both security and speed. The general consensus these days is to leave the gun in the holster until you think you actually need it. If you're hiding the gun, that's probably a good indicator that you don't really need it out right now. Establishing a master grip on a holstered weapon (using contemporary gear) gives you greater weapons retention/security and a quicker presentation to target compared to hiding it behind the leg, while making it dramatically easier and quicker to transition to intermediate force.

For the reasons articulated by @DDTSGM, it has mostly fallen out of favor across the country. There are still some pockets where it is still practiced, and these places tend to be very insular in their training development. In addition, some Navy SEAL was going around advocating this a couple years ago for private citizens in active shooter situations, which is an even worse idea...an absolutely fucking retarded idea...and will 100% get you shot by responding LEOs, justifiably so.

No. Just......no. The 1970s are calling. They want their police gun handling nonsense back.

The gun belongs in the holster unless you anticipate immediately needing to shoot. Rather than the hidden dangle, how about keep your hand on the gun in the holster.

That's Tactical Dangle, to you.

[AMC]

@TGS.....I'll take "Stupid Cop Tricks" for $1000.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As an aside on running bad guys. As a kid, I saw a guy grab a purse on Flatbush avenue near Erasmus Hall High School. Around the block was a police precinct changing shifts. He ran around that corner with folks yelling about him. Tens of cops leaped into pursuit as he ran back and away. I saw one cop pull his revolver and aim. The one next to him said: Oh, for God's Sake - we got him.

They swarmed him by the donut shop (Fate!). He was treated roughly and thrown into a squad car that drove up. A Brooklynite said: Hey, what did you do to him? An officer said: He fell down. Sir, you could fall down. The wise guy said: Well, that's quite alright.

Still remember that. Also, the donut shop. It had a machine that plopped dough into frying oil, retrieved the donut and then chocolate frosted it - all in a conveyer belt system. We kids just used to stand outside the window watching it.

[HCM]

Probably most common on vehicle stops. The technique was featured on an old training film, IDR if it was Vehicle Stop Tactics of Survival Shooting Techniques so probably a lot of older officers adopted it and passed it along, although not that far out of the ordinary that many officers came upon it on their own.

As with all tactics, if you are using it you ought to be able to explain why you are using it, and the pros and cons.

While at first blush this may seem like a good tactic, particularly on a vehicle stop at night, what happens if during your approach the driver begins to exit the vehicle? Of course you would command them to stay in the vehicle, but what if they don't?

If you don't see any weapons as the driver exits do you attempt to holster your weapon? If the driver attempts to close the distance, ignoring your verbal commands, are you justified in firing? In the situation I've painted, what is the likelihood you are going to get in a physical confrontation with either your pistol in hand or shoved in it's holster w/o all the retention engaged?

Finally, is it actually faster and more accurate to bring the pistol from behind your leg and essentially follow the arc of a shovel draw, or practice hand placement on the approach and hit your index points as you draw from the holster?

These are some of the things I'd suggest for consideration before just 'monkey see, monkey doing' a tactic.

Complete context matters.

I learned the "behind the leg" thing from old school NYPD guys who also taught me that if one suspected trouble your gun belonged in your hand (i.e. preemptive draw). However, their context was working out of the old (and mandated) "Jay Pee" holster which was significantly slower to draw from than a modern duty holster. Is it still something I would teach? No, but our context is different.

You can get a sub 1 second draw out of a modern duty (even level III) if you put the work in. The Jay-Pee not so much.

In the context of a 1970's NYPD officer behind the leg is a way to work around mandated but deficient gear rather than "stupid cop tricks."

[Dog Face Gremlin]

...and I was always told..."a bird in the hand".

[TC215]

I saw some old timers (and newer guys) doing the gun behind the leg thing on traffic stops.

I always figured that if I felt the need to approach a car on a traffic stop with my gun drawn, then I probably shouldn’t be approaching the car.

[TGS]

...and I was always told..."a bird in the hand".

Great to hear, very happy for you.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors of telling LE how we're doing our job wrong based on your extensive experience of, "I worked in a city and saw cops do this". If only we had more heros like you.

[WobblyPossum]

I saw some old timers (and newer guys) doing the gun behind the leg thing on traffic stops.

I always figured that if I felt the need to approach a car on a traffic stop with my gun drawn, then I probably shouldn’t be approaching the car.

Pretty solid reasoning there.