Press-Out: Good or Bad?

[joshs]

Help me out with something here.. I have talked to and been schooled(in person and phone and net) by USPSA GM's and M's using irons and optics and when talking about the draw to first shot. The consensus is always stop-aim-press. What gives? Now when I hear that from an Open shooter is carries a lot of weight. There is no reason he/she couldnt pull the trigger any where in the draw once the dot is on target, but he/she still stop-aim-press.

I wouldn't call it consensus. Here is a thread on BE's forum from 2007 discussing the exact same topic. In the thread, an M class Open shooter and a GM Production shooter both advocate an "inverted L" type draw.

[Kimura]

So forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't this just the old 'my kung-fu is better than yours' argument? Same as the 45acp is better than 9mm and all the others? Ultimately, it's not the technique that matters, but the practitioner. To say that one technique is better than another without any true way of measuring it is fruitless and mearly a measure of pride in a given technique. We may as well be talking about reloading in front of your face or lower around your body. It'll result in the exact same discussion with several examples of people doing it super fast both ways with a pro and con list of why you should or shouldn't do it that way. If we just want the list, that's one thing, but can one definitely say that one is better than another? To be able to do something 100% 100% of the time is always going to be slower than being able to do it.

Not the way I'm understanding the discussion. It's more what works in gun games may not necessarily be the best tactic in a gun fight. Here's how I see it from my perspective. My index draw is quicker than my press out. Right now the press out is new to me, so there's no getting around that. Now, this is the case because I break the shot, irregardless of my draw, at full extension. However, press out means I see my sights sooner, meaning a couple of things; first, I don't get onto the trigger until I see my sight picture in front of me. You may call that slow, I call it safe. Because while I love shooting against a clock, I'm a defense minded shooter and getting on the trigger before then increases the likelihood of putting a bullet in the wrong person. Pat McNamara says safety on, finger off the trigger until you have a sight picture. This is also the way I was trained and I agree with this philosophy. Second, if I have to break the shot earlier than full extension, I'm in a better position to do so. And while index is faster, all the talk of starting to break the shot prior to having some sort of sight picture is fine for competition, but, IMHO, not fine in real life. Also, as Todd has mentioned, with the press out, I'm not going to sweep everyone and his or her grandmother with my muzzle. Makes a difference to me. Finally, as has been discussed earlier, press out works better when you have limited space.

IMHO, press out offers advantages in the real world that may not be a benefit in gun games. Similar to things that might work in a traditional Karate tournament, do not necessarily translate well to the cage. Because there is more freedom in the cage, more allowed in the cage, therefore it's closer to real life. And yes, I've done both, so I do know the difference. My point is that not everything works everywhere. Some things are better for gaming purposes. Not to say they're useless in every real life situation, meaning they just aren't the best choice. Just my opinion.

[JV_]

Not too long ago I trained with John Holschen at Insights. He teaches a press-out, but he prefers to not elevate the muzzle. His draw stroke is L shaped. I suspect his preference for the horizontal muzzle is partially the result of him using an RDS (Glock 19) and elevating the muzzle would make it harder to track the dot since it would be out of view (initially).

We also talked about breaking the shot early, before full extension. IIRC, he said breaking the shot before full extension, as long as your sights were aligned, was a natural next step - I think he used the phrase "evolutionary step".

[ToddG]

Really, I think competition of all types shines because it encouragers practitioners to train more, plain and simple.

Absolutely. Most people will put more effort into the game they know they are playing next weekend than the fight they might (but come on, probably not) get in sometime down the road. Competition allows people to experience some stress, deal with a shooting problem not of their own making, and push themselves to improve in an objective way. Can you get there without competition? Sure. But in my opinion, competition has a definite place in shooting development.

So whether or not Bob Vogel uses a legit press out or not, I don't want to find myself in a gun fight with him, because he would most likely burn me to the ground in the process. Press out or not. .6 seconds to a bad guy gives that person a lot of time to "adjust the sights and squeeze the trigger" if the bad guy's draw is 1.5 seconds.

I'd say that's pretty obvious. If someone can do it in 0.6 seconds (regardless of how) he's going to be faster than the guy who can do it in 1.5 seconds.

4. At some point, I would imagine the press out becomes your index, no? Meaning, once your body knows how to get to where the eye is pointing at, I would imagine it becomes less tasking and more efficient/automatic. As Todd said, any 'cleaning up of the sights' will happen along the horizontal if you are hitting a more difficult shot.

That's true of anything. Again, I'll draw us back to the trigger press analogy. A beginner may have to be very conscious and focused on the movement of the trigger for a shot that an experienced shooter would take without any thought at all.

And thanks for the clarification on the Bruce Lee quote.

Oh, so you mean there is a distinction between I have done it at least once, and I can do it most every time?

Apparently only to some people.

It'll result in the exact same discussion with several examples of people doing it super fast both ways with a pro and con list of why you should or shouldn't do it that way. If we just want the list, that's one thing, but can one definitely say that one is better than another?

Exactly right. This thread and so many like it around here lately have been about people who want to crusade against something because they're certain their way is superior. Luckily, a lot of people have been able to point out the pros and cons of multiple approaches. None of them is perfect. But discussing and understanding the strengths and weaknesses helps people evaluate what makes the most sense given their needs, priorities, and capabilities.

[Patrick Scott]

I wouldn't call it consensus. Here is a thread on BE's forum from 2007 discussing the exact same topic. In the thread, an M class Open shooter and a GM Production shooter both advocate an "inverted L" type draw.

I 'm not speaking to one element of the press out, I am talking on the whole. Do you think the press out is popular among top level shooters?

[Patrick Scott]

Not too long ago I trained with John Holschen at Insights. He teaches a press-out, but he prefers to not elevate the muzzle. His draw stroke is L shaped. I suspect his preference for the horizontal muzzle is partially the result of him using an RDS (Glock 19) and elevating the muzzle would make it harder to track the dot since it would be out of view (initially).

We also talked about breaking the shot early, before full extension. IIRC, he said breaking the shot before full extension, as long as your sights were aligned, was a natural next step - I think he used the phrase "evolutionary step".

If its the next evolutionary step, then why do users of the press out go to extension at all? Why bother?

[joshs]

I 'm not speaking to one element of the press out

Neither were they, if you read the thread, you'll see they discuss many of the same benefits as discussed in this thread.

Do you think the press-out is popular among top level shooters?

Since we were talking about USPSA shooters, I'm assuming you mean top level USPSA shooters. I think some elements of the press-out are used by top level USPSA shooters. Such as getting the gun level and moving straight at some point before extension and beginning the trigger press before the gun reaches extension. I think keeping the gun close to your body while it is moving up is less applicable to competitive shooting, so it is not something that is used or taught by most top level USPSA shooters.

[Patrick Scott]

Neither were they, if you read the thread, you'll see they discuss many of the same benefits as discussed in this thread.



Since we were talking about USPSA shooters, I'm assuming you mean top level USPSA shooters. I think some elements of the press-out are used by top level USPSA shooters. Such as getting the gun level and moving straight at some point before extension and beginning the trigger press before the gun reaches extension. I think keeping the gun close to your body while it is moving up is less applicable to competitive shooting, so it is not something that is used or taught by most top level USPSA shooters.

I think its easy to defend the press out by saying "I think some elements of the press-out are used by top level USPSA shooters". Way to easy in fact. Of course some elements are used. We are reaching for the same goal. Gun from holster to bang on target. If you are going to be that broad, then hip shooting uses elements of the press out.

[Zhurdan]

If its the next evolutionary step, then why do users of the press out go to extension at all? Why bother?

Because extension means recoil control for the rest of your shots.

Being I started the "Press-out or Punch-out" thread, I thought I'd interject with my findings thus far. The press-out is faster to the first shot if I'm practicing it. The punch-out is faster if I'm going for sheer speed. To clarify, I've been doing the punch-out (index) for 14+ years and the press-out for less than one year. My body knows where to go with the punch-out... FOR NOW.

I'm going to continue working on the press-out as I find it has merit... WHEN TRAINED enough. Right now, I'm no where near what I'd call proficient with it, unless I'm calm, go over it in my mind before the string of fire, and focus intently on the process. Whereas, I've done the punch-out (index) for so long, I can get on target and follow up a shot lickity split (phrasing!!!). It'll take time. It took me years to get to where I'm at now, I'm sure it'll take just as long to get good with the press-out too.

[LOKNLOD]

If its the next evolutionary step, then why do users of the press out go to extension at all? Why bother?

Because the subsequent shots are best accomplished from extension? I think discussion of the shots after the first are tangential at best to the discussion of draw-to-first-shot techniques.