Press-Out: Good or Bad?

[TCinVA]

The trainer thing is ironic because I've trained with most of the big names in the industry and it's a fair mix between those who do something akin to a press out and those who do the present/pause/press method.

Sometimes the instructors themselves change positions on it over a period of time.

[DonovanM]

You're still missing the point. The idea is to get the front sight in front of the eye early and close. Instead of picking a single moment from the video, watch the whole thing. It was a stylized example of the technique. Given how many people have found it's helped them, I'm pretty ok with it.

No, I totally get the point. I understand completely what the pressout entails and I have seen the entire video

I noticed you failed to include this one, too, where I hit a 40% IPSC at 20yd in under 1.5s from concealment... using almost the exact same movement.

Well, if I was linking every video of a pressout ever made that may be true, but all I was doing was highlighting what I meant when I said "picking your nose with the rear sight".

I guess since we're posting videos of the capabilities of our various draw techniques, here's a video of me doing the same exact thing - a tougher target at the same distance in the same time with the same gear. This is me shooting under match pressure, where I don't generally throw out wild inconsistent shots. It's been known to happen though, especially since as we know, accuracy is apparently at a premium in USPSA competition...

On a good day I might be your average A class USPSA shooter. Todd you've probably been shooting 10x as long as I have and shoot easily 10x as much ammo per year as I have total downrange in my entire lifetime, but yet here is an example of us turning in essentially identical performances. Why would this be? I would argue it is because of the unnecessary complication of the L-shaped pressout which requires a longer amount of time and greater degree of effort to master than a more standard draw style, where the speed of the gun moving isn't modulated and the lion's share of the sight alignment is done at full extension.

OK, we disagree.

My point is that if you're going to talk about an index draw, it cannot be assessed and measured based on how fast you "click" at full extension in dry fire. If it takes time to clean up the sights and finish the trigger press once you're at extension, that time counts.

You're trying to measure from point A (holster) to point B (extension). But what really matters is getting from point A to point C (the gun going off and scoring an accurate hit). You may get to "B" faster but if you're not breaking an accurate hit then it's meaningless. And as I said, that's what I see from people all the time who spend the majority of their time working it from index to tough targets: either they break the shot at extension and have a lower percentage of hits, or they stop, aim, and press which takes a lot more time.

Put another way, having "B" and "C" the exact same moment saves time over having a delay between "B" and "C" ... so then the question becomes whether you're getting to "B" so much faster that you still have time to aim and break the shot before I ever get to "B."

You keep telling me I don't understand what we're arguing about, yet you dismiss the fact that I brought up this exact thing in my last post?

Just so we're clear, I feel like I'm reiterating this, but maybe not:

With an L shaped pressout, you can break the shot comparatively sooner after full extension. The problem is, it takes longer to get to full extension both because of the longer distance traveled AND the modulation of speed based on the difficulty of the shot.

With a more straightforward draw, it takes longer after full extension to make the same shot. But I believe this is more than made up for by the decreased time to full extension and the relatively small amount of time it would take for a reasonably competent shooter to actually align the sights for a hard shot.

I don't like discussing speed by itself because I think it's a natural byproduct of mastery when everything else is taken care of and you're dead nuts consistent - or at least that's how I think it should be treated. But when you handicap yourself so badly on a not insignificant sub-skill of shooting by unnecessarily and inefficiently complicating things, I think it warrants some amount of discussion. I don't know why someone just decided one day that breaking the shot at the moment of full extension was preferable as opposed to pausing. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Even though it's a gross misrepresentation of Occam's Razor, I still like to think that the simplest approach to a problem is the best. As I've said, I think the further one gets away from just drawing the gun and putting it on the target the worse off they are. I feel that when approached with a problem like having to draw in the confines of a vehicle, this "competition shooter" - as I've apparently been labeled - will simply draw the gun and put it on target, as that's what I've trained to do - through ports, while moving, around barricades, going prone, crouching, etc.

No one suggested taking a shot from that position. That's just another assumption you made without really understanding what's being discussed. Rather than tell everyone they're wrong, how about asking questions when you don't understand something?

BOM did in the post I quoted, when he said if he had to take a shot 4 inches from his face then it would be easier because he was used to doing the pressout. I am not planning on ever doing this.

[DonovanM]

In fact, the way you demonstrated to us why the press-out is superior to the index is by making shots with both techniques and comparing the times, and noting that on the 20 yard plate rack only the dudes using press-outs made their first hit (which was the point for me where I was seriously turned onto the press-out).

I don't really think this is the best way to evaluate techniques. For one, since the instructor is biased for one particular technique and obviously way more familiar with it, his times will be skewed in favor of his favored technique, even if he intended to be impartial.

I also wouldn't put much stock into that "only the dudes using pressouts made their first hit". Not only are we dealing with potentially incredibly variable levels of skill, but just because someone didn't see enough to make a shot doesn't mean they're using the wrong draw technique. This is a fundamentals problem... has nothing to do with their draw.

[JDM]

BOM did in the post I quoted, when he said if he had to take a shot 4 inches from his face then it would be easier because he was used to doing the pressout. I am not planning on ever doing this.

That really should've read "8 inches, or 11 inches, or any distance that isn't full extension" as in: I may need to shoot something, in a very precise manner, without the option of having the gun at full extension while doing so. Chalk the 4 inches thing up to poor number choice.

[ToddG]

I guess since we're posting videos of the capabilities of our various draw techniques, here's a video of me doing the same exact thing - a tougher target at the same distance in the same time with the same gear. This is me shooting under match pressure, where I don't generally throw out wild inconsistent shots. It's been known to happen though, especially since as we know, accuracy is apparently at a premium in USPSA competition...

USPSA but you were shooting from concealment?

Also, you say it's the "same time" but I didn't hear them announce what your time to that first shot was.

With an L shaped pressout, you can break the shot comparatively sooner after full extension. The problem is, it takes longer to get to full extension both because of the longer distance traveled AND the modulation of speed based on the difficulty of the shot.

You base this on what? How do you know it takes longer? How much time does this new bugaboo "modulation of speed" add to the draw?

I also wouldn't put much stock into that "only the dudes using pressouts made their first hit". Not only are we dealing with potentially incredibly variable levels of skill, but just because someone didn't see enough to make a shot doesn't mean they're using the wrong draw technique. This is a fundamentals problem... has nothing to do with their draw.

Again humor! First you wanted to compare single instances on video as definitive, then you tell someone who saw (how many?) shooters perform task (how many times?) that he doesn't have enough data. You weren't even there but you can better assess what he saw?

Anyway, the game has been fun but I've explained what I do and why. Last word is all yours.

[DonovanM]

USPSA but you were shooting from concealment?

Also, you say it's the "same time" but I didn't hear them announce what your time to that first shot was.

Yeah, the holster had just come earlier that day so I ran Limited Minor just for fun. I looked at the shot timer afterwards. 1.46.

You base this on what? How do you know it takes longer? How much time does this new bugaboo "modulation of speed" add to the draw?

That's my argument and my opinion. It is literally impossible to irrefutably test as I've said before.

First you wanted to compare single instances on video as definitive, then you tell someone who saw (how many?) shooters perform task (how many times?) that he doesn't have enough data. You weren't even there but you can better assess what he saw?

Anyway, the game has been fun but I've explained what I do and why. Last word is all yours.

You started by posting the video and being very specific with the performance standard... I only meant to respond in turn. It is not definitive and only a shade above meaningless.

I stand by what I said. If a shooter misses a shot, it's because they didn't see what they needed to see, not because they weren't picking their nose with the rear sight on the draw or something.

[TGS]

I don't really think this is the best way to evaluate techniques. For one, since the instructor is biased for one particular technique and obviously way more familiar with it, his times will be skewed in favor of his favored technique, even if he intended to be impartial.

Totally. That's why I didn't put too much stock into that.....nor did I use it as an example of why the press-out is awezomer. I was citing it as something that Todd used for demonstrating.

I also wouldn't put much stock into that "only the dudes using pressouts made their first hit". Not only are we dealing with potentially incredibly variable levels of skill, but just because someone didn't see enough to make a shot doesn't mean they're using the wrong draw technique. This is a fundamentals problem... has nothing to do with their draw.

I get your point on this one as well, but I know what I saw. From what I can remember, a couple of them were putting in significantly better performances than me besides first shot accuracy under imperfect conditions. And before you try and punk me with something else like, "Yeah bra but that's just one time, so don't put too much stock into it..." it's a phenomena that has repeated itself in my experience.

I personally would never claim a press-out to be faster in a familiar environment for a well-practiced shooter....ex: a regular at the matches going through a stage. I think the application of a press-out is most beneficial when dealing with situational friction, as it helps consistency. That's cool that you're like, really really fast with a gun. Good on you, I hope you reach whatever level of speed you're looking for. Speed isn't something I'm looking for in my skills. To me, speed is a fringe benefit from increasing my consistency. I know Todd doesn't like this phrase, but I love it: Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. I've had to perform all sorts of tasks under stress, with impaired physical abilities and diminished cognitive capacity, with a hundred times or so of performing them under the consequence of losing my life....with one time going the way I didn't want to because I didn't do it the reliable way. My bag of luck that day is the only thing that kept me healthy, because there were lots of people that have died from that same exact situation, including people I know.

The only thing I've learned is that similar skills under stress can take well to a great mindset similar to land navigation....you need catching features in-between point A and B in order to do it reliably and make sure you don't miss your destination. To me, a press-out is creating catching features so that I do it reliably when stuff isn't going as I hoped it to. To me, a press-out is simple, not overly complicated, because I'm not trying to be fast, I'm trying to be smooth. In the future, if I get killed because my press-out costs me an extra tenth of a second and I gave the bad guy time to shoot me in that tenth of a second, then feel free to piss on my grave and pat yourself on the back.

[JHC]

IMO this is a pretty kickass discussion. While I'm ingrained in an index sort of draw that dates back many decades and a zillion reps, I pointed my pretty solid shooting elder son to the press out years ago since his application is entirely martial. I can't say exactly how he finishes his trigger press because it's all faster than I can see/discern but he executes it like a training video for it. I figured it was a solid method for someone who will likely be in harms way perhaps in confined spaces and may or may not be shooting at the draw with the ROE and the situation etc but getting to high ready as early as possible was worthwile.

I'm skinny dumb and happy where I'm at but I have GOT to work on making consistent A zone hits at 20 yards in a second and half! That rocks.

[Gary1911A1]

Wow, a lot of good info here. Need to go back and read it all again from the start. I'm more like south narc in that I bring the pistol up to chest level and press it out aligning the front sight in the rear notch more level than muzzle/front sight up. Hope that made sense.

[GJM]

At what point (distance or size of target) does the press-out no longer work, and you have to pause to refine the sight picture/trigger press? for example, groups at 25 yards, Dot Toture at 12 yards, or an 8 inch plate at 70 yards.