Getting 2 hits under 2 sec. to the 3x5 at 7 yds ??

[CCT125US]

Title says it all. For those of you that can consistently do the above, how exactly do you do it?
In regards to:
(A) stance?
(B) clearing the cover garment from AIWB. What technique have you found to be the fastest and most consistent? Does your style work with a strong headwind, SOM, and with all types of cover garments?
(C) master grip? Do you drive the web of your hand down onto the gun, do you come in from the front of the grip, does the grip form a funnel with the belt that directs the hand to the gun?
(D) taking the support hand from the garment to the gun?
(E) how high does the gun come out of the holster before you start the rotation towards the target?
(F) does the barrel go straight from the holster to the target? That would be the least movement, but we all have different body mechanics and flexibility. For example if you where standing in the center of a clock would the barrel go to the 12 o'clock position or does it go to some other position say between 9 and 12 o'clock at a distance of 3 feet and then snaps to the target.
(G) describe the amount of pressure placed on the gun to manage that single split. For example you know you are not doing a Bill Drill but you do need consistent muzzle rise and return. I found that if I envision driving my WH thumb toward the target while maintaining a sharp FS focus it allows for a cleaner and more steady sight picture vs. driving the whole unit out there and getting a sort of muscle trembling seen in the sight picture

Thoughts would be most helpful as I have now used my word limit for the day.

[jstyer]

I'd like to hear feedback on this as well... I have my reload sub two pretty consistently, and my high probability splits are fine... but I can't get those two damn shots sub two consistently!!! (kills me on 99 drill)

[DonovanM]

I can... and I have no idea how to answer most of your questions.

Hopefully this helps.

A) Weight on balls of my feet, mostly upright... doesn't really matter to me. I haven't seen any difference at all in recoil control if I bend over, or really anything more than a simple forward weight bias.
B) Lifting it up from below with my weak hand... Works on the move... works with the tshirts/polos I wear day to day... never tried it in a headwind.
C) I have no idea. I just grab the thing and put it on target.
D) See vid
E) Looking at the vid, somewhere between the two common sizes of subway sandwiches.
F) See vid... I usually run more of an inverted J draw from AIWB. Not a press out, and not straight out to the target either.
G) It's the grip I use for everything... probably best described as a 60/40, but I'm not really using more grip pressure with my other strong hand, it's just that the way my hand and arm is positioned I'm applying more rotational torque to the gun than with my strong hand. In terms of pure squeezing pressure, I like to feel as though I have one big hand gripping the gun... if that makes any sense at all.

[TCinVA]

Title says it all. For those of you that can consistently do the above, how exactly do you do it?
In regards to:
(A) stance?

Being in a good aggressive crouch will be recommended by many as a step in the right direction. It can be done bolt upright, though. I have a bad habit of starting in a crouch before the buzzer and standing bolt upright during the draw.

(B) clearing the cover garment from AIWB. What technique have you found to be the fastest and most consistent? Does your style work with a strong headwind, SOM, and with all types of cover garments?

Here you're treading into area where many people can improve dramatically:

Move both hands at the same time.

Now I say that and people will think they're doing it. I thought I was doing it, too...until I saw video of myself at one of the Culpepper get togethers and I noticed that my right hand wasn't actually starting to go to the gun until my left had fully cleared the covering garment. I was leaving fractions of a second on the table that way which a simple change fixed.

Another bit was also simply consciously moving faster.

As for the "technique" of clearing a covering garment, it depends on the garment. Closed front garments like a polo shirt tend to be fairly simple in terms of the draw because you can grab them pretty much anywhere and it works. Button-front garments are a bit tricker depending on where they are buttoned. This is one of those things you'll have to spend time playing around with at home with a blue gun or an empty pistol to figure out completely.

The shorter the garment is, the easier it is to get it out of the way. If you have to fully extend your arms to reach the bottom of the shirt then it will be slower and more problematic because you're moving more material over a greater length of yourself than if you have a shirt with a shorter overall length. Ideally the shirt should be just long enough to hide the tell-tale signs of gun on your waist when your arms are fully extended over your head. If it's just long enough to do that then odds are it will be fairly easy to draw from.

Now how many people actually walk around in daily life selecting shirts based on whether or not it will give them an optimal draw? Even on a place like this which is loaded with obsessive gun nerds probably only a small percentage.

As for grabbing the garment, I think of the grab really as more of a "scooping" action where I use a fairly relaxed left hand position and think of pulling straight up my torso as fast and violently as possible. When I can feel that I've made good contact with the shirt I close my grip hard. When I combine this thought of a "torso scoop" with the thought of "move fast" and the thought of "move both hands, moron" the end result is that I can get the gun out of the holster fairly fast.

(C) master grip? Do you drive the web of your hand down onto the gun, do you come in from the front of the grip, does the grip form a funnel with the belt that directs the hand to the gun?

The strong hand comes down on the pistol from above, with the right thumb pressed against the torso as a guide to the gun. That guides the web of the hand into the right position which essentially establishes my master grip. Note that this is something that's made very difficult with a holster that doesn't position the pistol properly. The pistol needs to ride high enough above the belt to allow a good master grip to form while the weapon is still in the holster.

(D) taking the support hand from the garment to the gun?

When you rip at the bottom of the shirt sufficiently it should place your weak hand at more or less the center of your chest...a pretty good spot for it to meet up with the pistol as you present to the target. So for me I just let go of my shirt while the strong hand is in the area of the weak and the two hands mate up under my chin and everything gets finalized as I get the sights up into my eye line.

(E) how high does the gun come out of the holster before you start the rotation towards the target?

Hard to say, exactly...as I'm typically pulling the gun fast and what we think we do isn't necessarily exactly what we do at speed. Looking at video of my best FAST run, I appear to be rotating the muzzle out toward the target at around armpit height.

(F) does the barrel go straight from the holster to the target? That would be the least movement, but we all have different body mechanics and flexibility. For example if you where standing in the center of a clock would the barrel go to the 12 o'clock position or does it go to some other position say between 9 and 12 o'clock at a distance of 3 feet and then snaps to the target.

No, I do not go for the "straight line from holster to target" thing because with that approach you're not actually able to get on the sights until very late in the draw stroke. While I'm sure there are some people who have managed to be fast like that, I'm much slower taking an aimed shot that way. I want to get the gun up into my eye line as quickly as possible so I can begin refining my sight picture while the gun is being presented to the target. I tend to think of my draw as an up-side-down L shape. The gun comes up from the holster and then once it's in a position where I can use the sights it goes out to the target while I'm aligning the sights and working on the trigger pull.

This is the fastest way I've personally tried when it comes to making a precise shot on demand at speed...which is essentially what you're trying to do on a 3x5 card.

(G) describe the amount of pressure placed on the gun to manage that single split. For example you know you are not doing a Bill Drill but you do need consistent muzzle rise and return. I found that if I envision driving my WH thumb toward the target while maintaining a sharp FS focus it allows for a cleaner and more steady sight picture vs. driving the whole unit out there and getting a sort of muscle trembling seen in the sight picture

Thoughts would be most helpful as I have now used my word limit for the day.

I don't really think of it in terms of a particular number of shots. Establish a good grip and learn to get it from the holster at speed and it won't matter much how many shots you fire.

For me the challenge is actually getting the grip correct out of the holster at speed and doing all the little things correctly. I tend to get lax and try to control the pistol only with grip strength when I'm going "fast" from the holster. Sub-optimal, but I can usually get away with a decent time despite it.

[GJM]

I have only transitioned from the M&P to a G17 over the last two months, and found it has taken me some time to learn to pull a Glock trigger as opposed to the Apex DCAEK trigger.

I am just now getting comfortable with the 2 at 7 in 2. I am not sure whether it is just a coincidence, but I have spent a lot of time over the last few weeks shooting two inch dots at 7 yards, and trying to pick a specific part of the two inch dot to shoot at. After that, picking a spot on the 3x5 feels like a large target, and I have been getting my shots in within two seconds with a high degree of success.

[JV_]

I use differing amounts of crouch, but not on purpose. If I'm static, I just make sure the weight is on the balls of my feet, and my chin is over my knees.

When I'm really pushing the speed, which for me is 1.7-1.8s on the 2 to the 3x5, I run a bit of a hybrid press-out.

I'm driving the gun out in a press-out manner, and I'm working the trigger, but I'm not giving all of my attention to the front sight. I can see the sights, and I know they're pretty close - but not perfectly aligned, and when I get to full extension I clean up the sight picture and finish the trigger pull.

For picking up the speed/splits, I use something like an AMRAP on the 3x5.

[Slavex]

Donovan, do you have any videos with live fire? Be interesting to see the comparison.

[GOP]

Personally, you could take every single one of us capable of 1.6-1.8 secondson the drill, and each run would look different. Shooting at a certain level (like most things) becomes much more about the amount of time practicing and much less about specific techniques. I think you'd be better off taking a conceptual approach (I.e. clear the cover garment, bring the gun out, see what I need to see) and practicing a ton versus a technique based approach (clear cover garment at a certain point, use a press out, put sights directly on target, etc). Your body will figure out what it needs to do if you practice enough.

I have done a grand total of 1 pistol course which was completely devoted to tactics, and I've simply practiced 6-10 hours a week. I just hit a 3.58 FAST clean with a 1.65 on the 3x5, so in my experience you have to practice intelligently and with a lot of volume once you know the basics.

[DonovanM]

Donovan, do you have any videos with live fire? Be interesting to see the comparison.

This is all I got, and it's from POV so doesn't show it that well. This was without much practice from concealment and only my 2nd time shooting the FAST. As you can see in the previous video, I have been practicing.

[ToddG]

I don't do anything different when drawing to the 3x5, I just do some things (primarily visual reference and trigger press) with greater precision which tends to mean more time.

If you're thinking of grip, stance, etc. in terms of the immediate target, you're creating a significant training scar. Even if you developed some idealized "way" for one target and a different idealized "way" for another, that's a benefit you can only call on when you have the time and circumstances to think about it in advance.

It will be easier to show you the cover garment stuff in person, but the short version is that I bring my support hand all the way to to where it will meet with the gun. This minimizes the chance of the garment fouling my draw while simultaneously putting me into an advantageous position when a threat might be very close.