New 2 July 2020 SIG P320 Lawsuit and P320 Concerns

[Suvorov]

I just read that Reddit thread... and wow. That looks like another critically serious design flaw in the 320. Can anyone who still owns one try to recreate this condition (safely)? @HCM, @GJM?

On my AUG21 manufactured P320/M17 When reassembly is done in this manner, I get a dead trigger that cannot be reset by racking the slide. The only way to reset the trigger is to pull the slide back and then to engage the slide lock. An audible click is heard and then the trigger functions normally. Additionally - the trigger MUST BE reset using the slide stop before I am able to insert a magazine. In other words it would not be possible on my gun to load the gun from the magazine if assembled incorrectly in this manner.

Additionally, I inserted a new dummy round into the breach by hand and attempted to fire the pistol by beating it lightly and performing press check. I was unable to observe any firing pin indentation.

[call_me_ski]

On my AUG21 manufactured P320/M17 When reassembly is done in this manner, I get a dead trigger that cannot be reset by racking the slide. The only way to reset the trigger is to pull the slide back and then to engage the slide lock. An audible click is heard and then the trigger functions normally. Additionally - the trigger MUST BE reset using the slide stop before I am able to insert a magazine. In other words it would not be possible on my gun to load the gun from the magazine if assembled incorrectly in this manner.

Additionally, I inserted a new dummy round into the breach by hand and attempted to fire the pistol by beating it lightly and performing press check. I was unable to observe any firing pin indentation.

Just got home and was able to try with an overrun M17 and had the same experience as above. I was unable to recreate the issue seen on Reddit.

[HCM]

On my AUG21 manufactured P320/M17 When reassembly is done in this manner, I get a dead trigger that cannot be reset by racking the slide. The only way to reset the trigger is to pull the slide back and then to engage the slide lock. An audible click is heard and then the trigger functions normally. Additionally - the trigger MUST BE reset using the slide stop before I am able to insert a magazine. In other words it would not be possible on my gun to load the gun from the magazine if assembled incorrectly in this manner.

Additionally, I inserted a new dummy round into the breach by hand and attempted to fire the pistol by beating it lightly and performing press check. I was unable to observe any firing pin indentation.

Just got home and was able to try with an overrun M17 and had the same experience as above. I was unable to recreate the issue seen on Reddit.

In my experience, Reddit is one of the worst sources of information on just about any topic.

In this particular case, the part that the Redditor talks about blocking the trigger bar is intentionally designed that way to also preclude inserting a magazine until the pistol is properly reassembled as Suvarov and Call me ski discovered.

The only way I could think of you could potentially have a negligent discharge in this manner is if you individually dropped around into the chamber through the ejection port.

[GJM]

While I worry that where there is smoke, there may be fire, on this reassembly so-called problem, with a design that prevents you from inserting a magazine if reassembled incorrectly, I have to say I am more worried about flying on a Boeing 737 than this with a 320.

[GJM]

I just tried the same thing with a 365 Macro, and it would not allow me to flip the take down lever back into position unless the slide stop was engaged. Seems like another thing Sig improved with the 365 design.

[psalms144.1]

On the reassembly issue, I had an early production (but post 2019) LE SKU P320 Pro that would give dead trigger 100% of the time after reassembly UNLESS it was reassembled with an empty magazine in the pistol. When I contacted Sig CS about it, they told me I should either re-assemble with an empty mag in the gun, or just keep racking the empty reassembled pistol until the striker "reset." They told me this was operating within "acceptable standards" based on the P320's design.

Needless to say, I asked for, and spoke to, someone up the chain at Sig, they sent me a return label, and fixed the pistol so that it would not have a "dead" trigger on reassembly. Don't recall what the "fix" was, but I do know it added one more nail in my P320 experiment's coffin...

[GJM]

On the reassembly issue, I had an early production (but post 2019) LE SKU P320 Pro that would give dead trigger 100% of the time after reassembly UNLESS it was reassembled with an empty magazine in the pistol. When I contacted Sig CS about it, they told me I should either re-assemble with an empty mag in the gun, or just keep racking the empty reassembled pistol until the striker "reset." They told me this was operating within "acceptable standards" based on the P320's design.

Needless to say, I asked for, and spoke to, someone up the chain at Sig, they sent me a return label, and fixed the pistol so that it would not have a "dead" trigger on reassembly. Don't recall what the "fix" was, but I do know it added one more nail in my P320 experiment's coffin...

Sig's strength and weakness is how quickly they get innovative products to the market. Unfortunately, that means many of us get to be product testers for them. HK is on the other end of the spectrum, and as a result, their slimline pistol takes five or ten years to reach the market.

[sickeness]

This was a thoughtful post, so I will give a thoughtful reply.

First, yes, I guess I am getting old. Turned 57 a couple of months ago, and I've been retired from my department for just over 18 months. I did over 30 years.....the last 4 of which was in charge of firearms training. It is without boast or exaggeration that I say that in that 4 years we accomplished more change than in the previous 25 years. Granted, that wasn't hard because there really hadn't been any in that time. And there were several changes we attempted to make that were blocked by higher management, including on both the training and equipment fronts.

Your apprehension that I am one of those folks who is against change and new equipment is incorrect. We bought, tested and eventually approved a version of the QLS unit. While I understand the convenience of the QLS for the use you described, we also had several breakages of the units that caused us to go the way we did. As for external vests, my office was involved in both testing armor from the vendors, and testing and recommending ammo pouches and medical pouches for the vests that were vast improvements over what the vendor supplied. We also made recommendations for pouch placement and supplemental training for the new equipment.

That all said....leave it to cops to screw up a good thing. The department policy for external vests and the recommendations for equipment placing have been ignored by most officers wearing them since before I left. Not only is equipment placed in positions where it is difficult to access quickly, but it interferes with the use of other items. Also, many officers have used the external carriers as an excuse to carry ever more gear, sometimes to a preposterous extent. They have traded future lower back problems for neck and shoulder issues, unfortunately. I get it....cops like useful gear. But do you really need to be carrying traffic wands and digital evidence cameras on your vest? Anyway, not everything needs to come off of the belt.

The Instagram generation is very much influenced by cool appearances, sometimes over and above utility. Not all of them, but a lot. Can't tell you how many times the answer to "Why are you doing/carrying 'X' thing?" was "Because it looks cool AF."

In short, while we should always be striving to innovate and evaluate new gear, training, tactics, etc., sometimes the gear isn't the answer. If you can barely pass an LE handgun qualification, the drop leg Safariland on a QLS isn't gonna help.

A red dot, though? Yeah, that's just a no brainer at this point. Red dot all the way.

I appreciate the reply, good points made.
Although I am not quite as long in the tooth as you, I have over 15 years on the job so I definitely wouldn't consider myself "instagram ready".

My initial point, not as a dig to you but to LE training culture in general is that just like in today's political arena there are always 2 extremes, the kids that want all the new bat belt accessories and the old guys that think police work should only include gear that's made out of steel or leather. Myself personally I try to be practical and judge each individual item on it's merit and how it makes my job easier.

The QLS is one of the more useful accessories I've adopted as soon as it was authorized by my Department and I honestly can't see how I could go back to not having it. I don't have it mounted on a drop-leg but on a plain old Safariland holster shank which is how most folks here wear it. It's pretty useful if you need to change guns or belts, like if I am going from duty belt to training belt or switching guns if it's raining and I don't want to carry an open emitter optic. My number one reason for utilizing though it isn't really tactical in nature: as a cop there are lots of times where you have to unholster or take out your gun and handle it administratively that doesn't involve training or suspects, like the obvious jail example. I find that anecdotally, most negligent discharges occur during these periods of administrative handling. Most people in general have the mental safety switches on when they are at the range or have their gun drawn on duty, but not turned on when they are taking the gun out of the trunk, locker, desk drawer etc. I just feel more comfortable having the extra layer of safety knowing my gun is encased in a level 3 duty holster when I am moving it around.

[GJM]

As someone that enjoys shooting different guns, I looked for a solution that would allow me to easily switch holsters. My solution is using a QLS fork on my field and range holsters, with a drop leg or Safariland CUBL. Works great.

[AMC]

As someone that enjoys shooting different guns, I looked for a solution that would allow me to easily switch holsters. My solution is using a QLS fork on my field and range holsters, with a drop leg or Safariland CUBL. Works great.

This is exactly the use I found for the QLS. When evaluating both different guns and holsters.