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Thread: Flashlight Techniques

  1. #1

    Flashlight Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    I wouldn't agree with all of that. This goes back to the difference between "shooting" and applying shooting to "problem solving" as a piece of a much bigger pie. One of the biggest reasons we had a lot of success with a "Weaver like fighting stance" is the due to the use of a flashlight in combination with a pistol to search and engage with. I spent a lot of years with Mike Harries. When you work a lot with a handheld light, you tend to use a technique that works well with it. Here is reality-the ISO based flashlight techniques totally suck-period. It wasn't till the advent of some of the X series Surefire WML's that you could actually work somewhat competently with a light and a ISO platform. This is still not a replacement in L/E circles for use of a light, BUT a WML will work well for Military units with lesser restrictive ROE's, and for most civilians who are working off reactive response for ID only and not really doing a lot of searching and other tasks with their lights.
    .
    For shooting, I find the Rogers flashlight technique to be the best of any, excepting a WML, and the Rogers technique works great with the Modern Iso. Nyeti, do you use the Rogers flashlight technique?

  2. #2
    First: I am finding the conversation above in regards to body position for competition and different applications with different guns interesting on the competitive side of the discussion.

    For the field use side, I am going to use GJM's statement to lead into what has been missed on the Gunsite/Modern Technique side of the equation:

    "For shooting, I find the Rogers flashlight technique to be the best of any, excepting a WML, and the Rogers technique works great with the Modern Iso. Nyeti, do you use the Rogers flashlight technique?"

    Not only do I not use Rogers, it was flat out not allowed to be used by my people. We tested Rogers....It led to issues with negligent discharges under stress conditions in testing. When you use both hands to do essentially the exact same thing with one side giving light, and one a bang is a recipe for disaster. We also had some of the longer fingered guys get fingers in the trigger guard with their support hand. It is a un-natural way to hold a flashlight. You have to use a special light and specialized carrier. Once in it, you are stuck in it, and the light will not flow naturally into use for other tasks well at all. Ken Good told me that in the tens of thousands of simulated gunfights using lights while at the Surefire Institue and Strategos, he used Rogers exactly one time. It is a one trick pony-it is good to shoot with a light in ISO, and does nothing else well, especially searching.

    How does this relate to the Modern Technique and Gunsite. What is often missed is that the cornerstone of the Gunsite teaching ideal is the Combat Triad that places EQUAL importance on Mindset (mental), Marksmanship (shooting), and Gun Handling (and tactics). The "shooting" part is only a third of the equation. The shooting part needs to work with the rest in application.

    Back to flashlights and application (this is where "context" is really important). On a typical night as a uniformed policeman (different more high risk stuff working crime suppression) in Southern California I would conduct five traffic stops (didn't like writing tickets, so these were stops looking for an arrest), at least the same number or more contacts of pedestrians (dirt bag parolees or gang members), a couple of high risk felony vehicle stops, three commercial building searches and three to five searches of domestic residences (that are in no way shape or form like what members here houses look like) looking for hiding suspects, and at least one solid yard to yard outdoor K9 search for a hiding felon/felons. All of these activities required the use of a flashlight in order to do everything form searching to filling out a traffic citation, checking an ID card, or looking for contraband. Equally, many of these tasks involved the deployment of a pistol in conjunction with the flashlight. Mindset wise, any of these encounters could instantly turn into a shooting. In combination with that would go a ton of threat evaluation and assessments of suspects and their actions. At this point, it should be obvious that "mindset" and "gun handling" were of far greater importance than "marksmanship". Essentially, it was all in preparation to shoot, with a low percentage of having to. Now, when that light illuminates a gun.......and a decsion is made to shoot, you need to go to auto pilot on those marksmanship skills, and the MUST blend with all the other stuff listed above. There is not a single task listed where Rogers flashlight technique would be worth a crap or a superior means of deployment.

    If we look back at the history of the application of the Modern Technique in combative situations, you will find that the whole Triad was in play and why many of the proponents of this "style" of shooting are pretty fixed on it. As an example, Larry Mudgett, Scott Reitz, and John Helms have all shot suspects form the Harries. Both of my shootings involved use of the Harries. In the case of Mudgett and Helms, it was during one of the most difficult hostage rescue problems ever encountered by L/E. In all of these cases, the "shooting" technique needed to work with the gun handling requirements for the situation. This is the context that these shooting techniques must be looked at in regards to anti-personnel use. The context will also change drastically for civilian defensive use, undercover/plainclothes use, and military deployment. It all needs to fit together.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  3. #3
    As the Rogers School teaches the Rogers technique, no special light or light holder is required. I use a two cell Streamlight the size of an extended Surefire 1B, which I carry in my front pocket. I have added a rubber band to make the technique easier although it is not required. I also have added a rubber band to my standard Surefire lights, and they work in my light pouches without modification.

    The Rogers School shows each of the techniques during the night shoot, and after a WML, the Rogers technique is invariably settled on as the best shooting position by every student. In terms of firing a shot, when you meant to activate the light, a WML with either a DG switch or toggle has to be far more likely to cause an ND, than the motion of the Rogers technique. While hands vary in size, and there are handgun differences, I haven't experienced problems with fingers in the trigger guard, or the technique. Same for my wife.

    I agree that it feels unnatural at first, but I regularly practice it, and it feels quite natural, including from transitioning from a conventional searching position. Kyle and Adam, Bill's assistant instructors at Rogers teach the flashlight module -- and both are working LE officers. It is the technique that they use, and feel is most likely to be available, given how often it gets dark, and how often people carry a WML.

    I think it is faster to acquire a shooting position with the Rogers technique, as with Harries, as both hands can more or less go out at the same time, as opposed to the Harries where the pistol goes out, followed by the flashlight. I think you are far more likely to cover yourself with the Harries, because of how your hand has to move.

    I definitely respect your right to any opinion and flashlight technique, but I respectfully disagree with your assertion there is no good ISO flashlight technique, and that in particular, there is something wrong with the Rogers technique. In summary, in my testing on the Rogers Range and my own practice, I shoot the Rogers technique far better than any other method than a WML, using the same lights I would normally carry, and it fully integrates into my regular method of using a flashlight. As an Alaskan, for half the year we get a lot of practice with darkness.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    the Rogers technique is invariably settled on as the best shooting position by every student.
    With was definitely NOT the case in my class.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
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    I'm interested in hearing more about the low light techniques, but it's a bit of a tangent RE: pistol technique history. Perhaps it could be broken off in it's own thread? It's a worthwhile topic in its own right.
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

  6. #6
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    Thread split from: Pistol Shooting Techniques
    http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...5363#post75363

    Please keep this thread about flashlight techniques.

  7. #7
    Member Shokr21's Avatar
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    I have a white light on my fighting rifle, I think it's common sense to also have a white light on my fighting pistol.

    I'll be the first to admit that I am far from being well versed in low light pistol techniques, but a wml just seems easy.

    I'll be watching and reading this thread with interest.
    OEF Vet
    Reading and Learning

  8. #8
    I have no answer other than I worked 19 years of nights in SoCal, been in and at multiple low light shootings, have tried everything out there and found Rogers sucks, but is better than the Ayoob technique that is terrible. Try Rogers with a full size rechargeable Maglite or even a Stinger. Look at typical cop lights. DOes it work with any light you can pick up anywhere? If you want to dedicate yourself to Rogers, knock yourself out.

    With that said, I have found the simplest system is to run Harries, Reverse Harries and Neck Index. My hand position never changes, I can flow seamlessly through all three as needed, I can use the light for impact and control, and I can hold the light the way normal people would grab and use a flashlight. It is easy to stow the light for reloads, and I can draw into it from any position. At work I carried a full size rechargeable Mag-Lite, some 6P sized variant, and at times added 9 and 12 Volt Surefires, as well as an Aviator. Any can go down, any may end up in your hand.

    Night searches tended to put me in very contorted positions and also required a ton of movement. When I do a open door to interior search, my light can end up in all three positions while pieing the doorway. I may have to then move the light into a position to do some wall painting and flashing prior to entry into my blind corners and rapidly flow that light back into a Harries. Try this holding a light like a syringe and get back to me. Same goes when somebody who is a non-shoot charges you....ask yourself how do I want to be holding the light when I attempt to deflect or repel that assault-like a club or like a syringe. If you think that bad guys without guns will charge you when you are pointing a gun at them-you are very wrong. I have found that a hard strike with a full size Maglite or the strike bezel of a Surefire is a big help in this regard.

    Lots of people can get the support hand press for light, strong hand press for bang.............I found people used to surprise stress engagements who screwed this process up. You are placing a bet at this point. THe same with thinking that you will be able to change hand positions rapidly under stress with a light.

    Oh yea, I do not shoot as good out of Harries or neck index as with two hands on the gun. I know this going in. It is why I want to maximize my light work to be in ahead of the curve in a low light encounter. I got to find the threat, ID the threat, evaluate its intentions, and then make a shoot/don't shoot threat elimination decision. This is all heavily dependent on how well I run the light before we even get to the pressing the trigger portion.

    For what its worth, if I was just looking to shoot through a problem with a handheld light, I would use the Graham technique at this point.

    I do have dedicated WML pistols, but they are not what I carry daily. It is a HUGE help, but not a replacement in any way shape or form for a handheld. You need both, and I place a priority on the handheld for something you should ALWAYS have.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  9. #9
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    GJM--I am unaware of your background...have you ever used a hand held light in a LE capacity?

    As I stated in the split thread, there is no one "perfect" light technique and I tend to move through several depending on the dynamics of an encounter. Using a handheld light, I tend to initially default to Harries or a Harries variant as this is a great way to search and is not particularly fatiguing for me, however there are times when a Rogers/modified Rogers is better (ex. when a right hand shooter is moving to the left from behind right side cover). Likewise, when in a situation where pointing a firearm at a subject may not be appropriate, yet I still want me pistol in hand, a neck-index light hold is useful. I just keep my light in my left hand and flow through the different light positions as needed. Remember, 99% of the time, I use my hand held light to search, identify, and control situations, NOT to shoot, thus the light technique that is perfect for pure shooting may NOT be the best option for the majority of tasks that must be accomplished besides actual shooting...

  10. #10
    "however there are times when a Rogers/modified Rogers is better (ex. when a right hand shooter is moving to the left from behind right side cover)."

    Doc, this is where I use reverse Harries so that I never have to change hand position on the light and it flows fast from both Harries or off neck index.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

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