The Sanford Florida incident....

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have had moderate success with the bump-and-roll during heavy sparring. At the time, I was sufficiently rehearsed to switch quickly to a shrimping maneuver if the guy on top was ready for it.

I was also fighting regularly as a kickboxer back then, and was fortunate enough to go to a school that did mixed martial arts before the UFC existed.

And I found it moderately effective.

At that time, I sparred two hours a week and could do twenty pull ups.

I would be worse at it now.

Zimmerman, as I said on about day two after the incident, pegs my weirdo meter.

But the odds of a guy who doesn't fight, and specifically sucks at trying, getting very far against a younger, stronger, more aggressive, more athletic individual probably aren't great, even if he hadn't had his head smacked off the sidewalk.

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[Trooper224]

Just now learning Krav Maga. There is one technique to get a person off of you who is straddling you...very effective. My Krav roomie made the point that Zimmerman could have likely escaped that situation using this technique. (You use your hips to bump the assailant up, then take away one leg and arm and roll.) Of course it's not always possible, but even women have the strength to do the bump.

Cody

And how many violent encounters has your roomie been in and what makes him qualified to make such a statement? Having spent time on the mat and even more on the street I personally know full well the disconnect that exists between technical theory and real world application against an aggressive opponent. In spite of my experience I don't consider myself qualified to "what if" or armchair quarterback this incident. I expect your roomie is even less so.

[TCinVA]

I have had moderate success with the bump-and-roll during heavy sparring. At the time, I was sufficiently rehearsed to switch quickly to a shrimping maneuver if the guy on top was ready for it.

I was also fighting regularly as a kickboxer back then, and was fortunate enough to go to a school that did mixed martial arts before the UFC existed.

And I found it moderately effective.

At that time, I sparred two hours a week and could do twenty pull ups.

I would be worse at it now.

Zimmerman, as I said on about day two after the incident, pegs my weirdo meter.

But the odds of a guy who doesn't fight, and specifically sucks at trying, getting very far against a younger, stronger, more aggressive, more athletic individual probably aren't great, even if he hadn't had his head smacked off the sidewalk.

I'm remembering hearing Craig Douglass mention at some point during ECQC that a street fight is, at best, a 50/50 proposition. I'm trying to remember if that was before or after Dropkick unloaded the mag from a sims Glock into my crotch at point blank range.

Anyhoo, the general gist was that knowledge and technique are great and all, but even with weapons and skill an unequal initiative event with a criminal attacker is a pretty damned risky proposition.

I'm not an expert in BJJ or Krav Maga, but nothing I've seen from those two disciplines makes me doubt that.

[BaiHu]

I'll weigh in a smidgen since rsa-otc called me in and mind you I'm a traditional martial artist that focuses on civil defense in a state where you can't carry a gun.

1. Anyone can be beat by anyone, especially if you're out numbered or your opponent has had plenty of set up time and/or practice. Think pick pockets and teamed strong armed men.
2. Getting taken down or hit well will take enough starch out of some people that the time to recover isn't there for someone willing to finish you. GZ struck me as being in this situation and wisely went for his gun.
3. I think Sugar Ray Leonard said the following, "the only difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional gets hit less."

[Lester Polfus]

Just now learning Krav Maga. There is one technique to get a person off of you who is straddling you...very effective. My Krav roomie made the point that Zimmerman could have likely escaped that situation using this technique. (You use your hips to bump the assailant up, then take away one leg and arm and roll.) Of course it's not always possible, but even women have the strength to do the bump.

Cody

I studied Krav for several years, and taught self defense seminars based on their curriculum. They have a decent ground program, it certainly won't replace a really good BJJ school, but they get credit for trying.

Things are certainly taught differently at different schools, but one concern I have is providing context for the student. For example here are three different contexts in which you can present the upa/or "trap buck and roll."

#1:

"If you get mounted, and somebody starts a ground and pound do this."

#2 even worse:

"If you get mounted, and somebody starts a ground and pound, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS this."

Or #3

"If you get mounted, and somebody starts a ground and pound, you are eating a shit sandwich and likely to die in the next few seconds. You are screwed, and here is one technique that possibly get you out of this, but only if your attacker doesn't know what he is doing, you do it immediately after you get mounted before the guy settles in, and even then there's a pretty good chance it won't work."

[BaiHu]

...
Or #3

"If you get mounted, and somebody starts a ground and pound, you are eating a shit sandwich and likely to die in the next few seconds. You are screwed, and here is one technique that possibly get you out of this, but only if your attacker doesn't know what he is doing, you do it immediately after you get mounted before the guy settles in, and even then there's a pretty good chance it won't work."

There is a point of no return in every discipline. Well put.

[David S.]

...

My two years of KM had a lot of #1 and #2 and very little of #3.

[LittleLebowski]

I mean this in a completely, non offensive way but the KM observations in the past few posts absolutely segue into what I've seen of "Israeli" firearms training online. That's just an observation with no supporting firsthand experience but I'll stick with BJJ and American firearms training.

[BaiHu]

I mean this in a completely, non offensive way but the KM observations in the past few posts absolutely segue into what I've seen of "Israeli" firearms training online. That's just an observation with no supporting firsthand experience but I'll stick with BJJ and American firearms training.

In defense of any "art" or "discipline", many times it is the teacher and not the material/style. (something I tried to convey in the Philosophy of Fisticuffs thread)

The problem I have with people who come up and tell me KM, MT or BJJ is the best because of X technique or Y process is that they rarely put that statement into context.

If you're in the military or law enforcement, then maybe KM is better for you because KM is based around that process. If you're an MMA fighter and you're taking KM, then I'm a bit perplexed, because I don't know why you need an eye gouge, groin stomp and knife/gun disarms in the octagon. I'm only being slightly facetious with that last statement.

[jetfire]

I mean this in a completely, non offensive way but the KM observations in the past few posts absolutely segue into what I've seen of "Israeli" firearms training online. That's just an observation with no supporting firsthand experience but I'll stick with BJJ and American firearms training.

I totally concur. Whenever I see someone post "I take Krav Maga" somewhere, my first urge is to roll my eyes. Everyone I've personally encountered who was into Krav had a lot of the "no you're attacking me wrong" type of instruction. I recall vividly a woman who weighed maybe, maybe, 100 pounds telling me how her instructor was teaching her to do gun and knife disarms. I remember thinking "that's going to get you killed," but I didn't say anything at the time.