Carbine Basics

[JDM]

Lets get a discussion going about basic carbine knowledge.

For the purposes of this thread, let us assume the end user is a guy like me -- a little rifle experience, but a novice when it comes to the modern defensive carbine. The owner wants to use the rifle for everything carbine related. Specifically, carbine classes, and home defense. Remember, this is a basic thread, so assume no SBRs or Suppressors for now; further assume one rifle for everything. Also, assume we are working with a good quality, correctly assembled gun, like a Colt, or Daniel Defense, etc.

• Is there an 'establishing reliability/function' period with a carbine like there is with a pistol (500 FMJs and 200 service rounds)?
• A good zero is vital to rifle shooting -- whats the best option for a general use carbine (16 inch, irons/1x red dot), and how do we get there?
• I get the idea that less really is more when first learning your rifle, especially coming in as green as I am. I.E. don't hang $2000 worth of modifications on your rifle before you've got the basics down, which is solid, but what does one absolutely need on the rifle to get the most out of it? Sling? Redi-Mag? Light?
• DocGKR provides excellent data on duty/defense ammo selection, but what about zero with defense vs. practice ammo? do you set two zeros? Zero for the defensive ammo, and adjust hold during training? Find a training/defense combo with the same POA/POI?
• What about optics? Is there still merit to the 'irons first' mantra, or has that given way to the prevalence of the RDS?

Naturally, the above hardly all inclusive, but it is certainly a start. Ask more questions! The long gun knowledge available here is something to be taken advantage of, and I think it is sometimes overlooked.

[Kyle Reese]

My thoughts in a condensed format, as I've got a plane to Dubai to catch here shortly.

Is there an 'establishing reliability/function' period with a carbine like there is with a pistol (500 FMJs and 200 service rounds)?

FWIW, when I get a new carbine, I generally run 1000 rds of M855 / M193 type ammo thru it to help gauge a baseline of reliability. A carbine from a quality manufacturer (Colt, Noveske, BCM,DD & some others) should be able to do this with little difficulty (assuming it's lubricated properly and you're using quality magazines). You also need to test each magazine you get for the carbine, if you intend to train with it or use it for duty / social purposes. Avoid the temptation to buy bargain basement brands wrt a carbine.

A good zero is vital to rifle shooting -- whats the best option for a general use carbine (16 inch, irons/1x red dot), and how do we get there?

Several schools of thought on this one. Some folks/organizations run/mandate a 300M zero, while others advocate the 50/200M. I keep it simple and have a 100M zero on my carbines. All this means is your POA/POI are the same at 100. Know your holdovers if you opt to utilize this zero, however.

I get the idea that less really is more when first learning your rifle, especially coming in as green as I am. I.E. don't hang $2000 worth of modifications on your rifle before you've got the basics down, which is solid, but what does one absolutely need on the rifle to get the most out of it? Sling? Redi-Mag? Light?

Get a good 2 point sling (Blue Force Gear, VTAC, Ares Armor) and white light (I run a SF X300 on my 6920 at the 12 o'clock position in front of the FSB). Some folks do not like the Redi Mag (or other accessories), so I'd suggest trying one on a friend's carbine (if possible) before purchasing. By "getting the most out of it", it depends on the intended purpose of the carbine. Recreational use? Duty?

DocGKR provides excellent data on duty/defense ammo selection, but what about zero with defense vs. practice ammo? do you set two zeros? Zero for the defensive ammo, and adjust hold during training? Find a training/defense combo with the same POA/POI?

The best way to establish this in your individual weapon is to see how each load prints at _____ distance (depending on your mission parameters). I have my carbines zeroed for M855 (with the exception of my MK 12 SPR).

What about optics? Is there still merit to the 'irons first' mantra, or has that given way to the prevalence of the RDS?

I don't subscribe to the "irons first" school of thought, but you should have your irons properly zeroed in conjunction with your RDS. Lots of shooters fail to do this. They buy Troy folding BUIS because they look cool, and never zero the things. My preferred RDS are the Aimpoint Comp M4 and T1 series.

Sorry for the brevity. Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

[JDM]

It does, very much. Thanks Fred!

And by "get the most out of it" realistically I mean recreation, or training classes. I'm not slinging a rifle, and shooting bad people for a living. Of the most remote possible uses for my rifle, shooting a violent felon is one of them -- like it is with every gun we own -- so that should be taken into small account. That said, this rifle isn't going into the trunk of my patrol car or the like, so we have some wiggle room for trial and error, etc. Also, before I rely on this gun as a home defense weapon, it (I) needs to be wrung out in a class, and proven reliable.

[Al T.]

Is there an 'establishing reliability/function' period with a carbine like there is with a pistol (500 FMJs and 200 service rounds)?

IME, if you are going to have problems in an AR, they crop up PDQ. As your magazines wear, the first indicator seems to be a double feed (aluminum magazines). Not sure about Pmags, no problems so far. Ammo wise, if you are shooting anything other than ball, shooting 50 rounds or so will tell you what you need to know.

A good zero is vital to rifle shooting -- whats the best option for a general use carbine (16 inch, irons/1x red dot), and how do we get there?

I'm a fan of the 50/200 zero. I cannot see engaging (SD) much past 75 yards based on my situation. Nothing wrong with the 100y zero either. I would avoid the 25m/300m zero as it is more useful to the military and puts your mid-line trajectory rather high.

I get the idea that less really is more when first learning your rifle, especially coming in as green as I am. I.E. don't hang $2000 worth of modifications on your rifle before you've got the basics down, which is solid, but what does one absolutely need on the rifle to get the most out of it? Sling? Redi-Mag? Light?

Sling, RDS and white light (IMHO) will do all that's needed. I like the SureFire G2 in a VTAC mount and an Aimpoint RDS. For my non-duty suburban needs, I'm GTG.

DocGKR provides excellent data on duty/defense ammo selection, but what about zero with defense vs. practice ammo? do you set two zeros? Zero for the defensive ammo, and adjust hold during training? Find a training/defense combo with the same POA/POI?

I've had some significant POI/POA differences with "serious" ammo vrs. "training" ammo. Strongly suspect it relates to velocity as I'm working my way through some PMC Bronze and running a 55 grain Ballistic Tip load for social use. I zero for the serious use ammo and suck up the (known/validated) difference. As far as zeros go, a zero is not locked in cement. As you change lot numbers, brands or even light conditions, a zero can change. Having a consistent way to check your zero is a good thing. I use a 6 inch by 6 inch steel target for a quick verification.

What about optics? Is there still merit to the 'irons first' mantra, or has that given way to the prevalence of the RDS?

I'm a faithful follower of Pat Rogers. In recent months, he is not only advocating RDS only for new shooters, but using a laser in the place of BUIS. I still have a fondness for iron sights, but would probably only train a new AR owner to hit a paper plate consistently at 50y and then move to the RDS. Please note that I have not evaluated a new AR shooters ability to hit that plate, it's just a thought.

One of Pat's mantras is the acronym "MEAL" for the AR.

M is magazines - use good ones and don't marry them.

E is extractors - more of a problem in the past, but having the correct one for the carbine and replacing them at about 5 k corrects this older issue.

A is ammo. Again, not as much of an issue now, but there is a difference between the previously mentioned PMC (low velocity) and a true 5.56 loaded cartridge like MK318. This can be an issue, so test accordingly.

L is lubrication. While always a fertile topic for the mass slaying of electrons, my take is that ARs need to be wet and what you wet them with is less important than actually doing so. FWIW, I like SLIP2000 products, but a can of Mobil One synthetic is a lot more cost efficient.

[JHC]

I'm not a carbine guru but I will hazard to say that the manual of arms or TTPs etc for running them can vary more IMO than the manual of arms for a pistol. As such, it's a lot easier to perform them jacked up. So getting to a quality class or carefully selecting a quality DVD - I reckon MagPul Dynamics or Kelly McCann's are both good - could be very useful to get off to a good start.

I'll leave the specifics of gear and details of method to SMEs.

I think I've benefited from making the AR carbine my primary hunting rifle and therefore spend a lot of time with them as I generally hunt 25-30 days each season with a lot of movement. It dusted off my old experience in training with them back in the late '70's/'80's and instills an unconscious familiarity with them. And now, I no longer own a bolt gun and my only lever action is a rimfire. All training, target shooting and hunting is with the AR.

Then judiciously selecting gear and competing in 3 gun matches with tactics oriented folks was also very useful.

[rob_s]

Green Eyes and Black Rifles is a great resource for the AR-shooter. Not everyone is going to agree with everything in it, but there is nothing patently silly or stupid in it like you may find elsewhere. It's good information from a well vetted source.

Mike Pannone's book is a great companion piece as well.

[HCM]

I'm a faithful follower of Pat Rogers. In recent months, he is not only advocating RDS only for new shooters, but using a laser in the place of BUIS. I still have a fondness for iron sights, but would probably only train a new AR owner to hit a paper plate consistently at 50y and then move to the RDS. Please note that I have not evaluated a new AR shooters ability to hit that plate, it's just a thought.

One of Pat's mantras is the acronym "MEAL" for the AR.

M is magazines - use good ones and don't marry them.

E is extractors - more of a problem in the past, but having the correct one for the carbine and replacing them at about 5 k corrects this older issue.

A is ammo. Again, not as much of an issue now, but there is a difference between the previously mentioned PMC (low velocity) and a true 5.56 loaded cartridge like MK318. This can be an issue, so test accordingly.

L is lubrication. While always a fertile topic for the mass slaying of electrons, my take is that ARs need to be wet and what you wet them with is less important than actually doing so. FWIW, I like SLIP2000 products, but a can of Mobil One synthetic is a lot more cost efficient.

This.

Pat is about to get a bit more famous: http://www.panteaoproductions.com/pr.../basic-carbine

A "Mature Audiences" warning may be necessary but you will definitely learn something.....

[JDM]

Thanks for the book recommendations Rob.

Good stuff in here guys.

[rob_s]

Just a side note...

M.E.A.L. is from Dean Caputo. I know that Pat rightly gives him credit, so probably best to do the same thing here. They are friends with one another, and I consider both mentors in a variety of ways, so it's not about one vs. the other, just giving proper credit as I know Pat always does.

[Jay Cunningham]

Lets get a discussion going about basic carbine knowledge.

For the purposes of this thread, let us assume the end user is a guy like me -- a little rifle experience, but a novice when it comes to the modern defensive carbine. The owner wants to use the rifle for everything carbine related. Specifically, carbine classes, and home defense. Remember, this is a basic thread, so assume no SBRs or Suppressors for now; further assume one rifle for everything. Also, assume we are working with a good quality, correctly assembled gun, like a Colt, or Daniel Defense, etc.

• Is there an 'establishing reliability/function' period with a carbine like there is with a pistol (500 FMJs and 200 service rounds)?
• A good zero is vital to rifle shooting -- whats the best option for a general use carbine (16 inch, irons/1x red dot), and how do we get there?
• I get the idea that less really is more when first learning your rifle, especially coming in as green as I am. I.E. don't hang $2000 worth of modifications on your rifle before you've got the basics down, which is solid, but what does one absolutely need on the rifle to get the most out of it? Sling? Redi-Mag? Light?
• DocGKR provides excellent data on duty/defense ammo selection, but what about zero with defense vs. practice ammo? do you set two zeros? Zero for the defensive ammo, and adjust hold during training? Find a training/defense combo with the same POA/POI?
• What about optics? Is there still merit to the 'irons first' mantra, or has that given way to the prevalence of the RDS?

Naturally, the above hardly all inclusive, but it is certainly a start. Ask more questions! The long gun knowledge available here is something to be taken advantage of, and I think it is sometimes overlooked.

I'll give you my non-BTDT opinion. I have been training pretty seriously with carbines since 2006, so I think I have some useful insight - of course it's my perspective. You're going to get a lot of overlap on opinions, and then you're going to see pretty clear divergence.


I don't know about an "established" round count for reliability. 500 rounds is pretty common to "bet your life on" but you get guys who will say 1000. However, you also get the "I'm going to out-mindset you" guys who want to make sure that you know how super-serious they are and tell you that they need 2500 minimum or whatever. For me 500 is good. If I get a new AR or help someone shake out their new AR, I usually load one round then shoot. Then I load two rounds and shoot. Then I load three rounds and shoot. If the gun didn't go full auto or blow up and the BCG locked back each time, I then usually dump a few 30 rounds magazines through the gun to GET IT HOT. Usually a lot of smoke comes from the innards of the gun and crap gets burned off. I'll let it cool down and then proceed with rough zeroing if all is well.

I zero my iron sights and my optics for 100 yards. From the prone position at 25 yards, I look to hit about 1.5" lower than my point of aim. This will get me in the ballpark for a rough zero. Then it's prone shooting at 100 yards, POA = POI. You can't get this wrong, no other zeros or maximum ordinals or whatever the hell are out there, so it's pretty idiot-proof. That's about it. Check your co-witness and make sure your dot is sitting on the tip of your front sight.

What do you NEED in the beginning to get the most out of your rifle? Well, good magazines and decent quality ammo. And lube. You can get really up to speed with just a stock iron-sighted rifle. But the first thing you will find that you "need" is going to be a better sling system that the carry strap that comes in the box.

I don't get wrapped up in tweaking zeroes between different weight bullets. The way I look at it is: 55 gr and 62 gr will not change very much out to 100. You can notice the difference at 200, but you can still hit a reduced steel torso center mass no problem. I have no issues zeroing with 55 gr at 100 but using 75 gr TAP in my HD gun, because at 15 or 25 yards the zero shift will hardly matter. I am not going to be shooting someone at 200 yards. And even if for some insane reason I would need to, I can just grab a mag of 55 gr. I keep my 75 gr in 20 rounds mags and my 55 gr in 30 round mags.

I think it's easier to learn on a red dot like an Aimpoint first. But I also think it's important to learn and use and be able to hit with the irons. I have been able to outshoot numerous high-speed types with irons because they wound up using the red dot as a crutch. I am not saying you need to "master" the irons, but for goodness sakes actually zero them and actally shoot with them instead of just slapping them on your gun only so some other basement-dweller doesn't accuse you of "not having BUIS on your rig, bro".