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Thread: "The Modern Technique" and "Competition Driven Shooting"

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    "The Modern Technique" and "Competition Driven Shooting"

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    He appears to be a devotee of "The Modern Technique" which is interesting considering the majority of instructors have eschewed for more competition driven shooting techniques. "
    I've been told this is a hot topic, but I remain curious. Why are instructors eschewing "The Modern Technique" for more competition driven shooting techniques? Does it relate to the whole "fighting with a gun" thread that was posted a little while ago? And if so, how?
    Last edited by LittleLebowski; 02-07-2012 at 03:27 PM.

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    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    We all know how this one can go, so proceed with caution here.

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    Member TGS's Avatar
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    I haven't a clue what this topic is (wtf is the "modern technique?"), so I would appreciate it if someone could explain.
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    Licorice Bootlegger JDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I haven't a clue what this topic is (wtf is the "modern technique?"), so I would appreciate it if someone could explain.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_..._of_the_Pistol

    ...The Modern Technique uses a two-handed grip on the pistol and brings the weapon to eye level, so that the sights may be used to aim at one's target. This technique was developed by Jeff Cooper in the 1950s...Weaver stance...flash sight picture...
    Nobody is impressed by what you can't do. -THJ

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    I don't think it really relates to the whole "fighting with a gun thing" Older instructors have been using The Modern Technique of the Pistol for a long time and hesitate to change. Cooper developed (or at least articulated and studied the development of) The Modern Technique through competition. At the top level of competition you find people who put an extrodinary amount of rounds down range, are at the pinnacle of technical performance where small differences are both measurable and important, and who are focused and competitive enough to spend a large amount of time analyzing every little bit of their technique. That's why they are at the top. So when developments are made in pistol craft, its probably going to come from competition (note that eltie law enforcement and military units are known to bring in top competition shooters to instruct on shooting.) So while there are certainly a large number of people who dogmatically hold onto The Modern Technique, it has been played out through measurable performance that certain attributes of grip and stance are better than others. When Brian Enos developed the thumbs forward grip it wasn't just to be different - it was to shoot better. When all the top shooters started shooting iso or at least isoish stances it wasn't because somebody told the Weaver wasn't cool anymore - it's because they found that it worked better and led them to winning. Defensive pistolcraft is a very young martial art that has gone through revolutionary changes in technique and equipment in past 50 years. I think that anyone who takes a snapshot in time whether it be 1975 or 2012 and decides that all knowledge after that point in unneccesary is naive at best. The same could be said for those that outright dismiss the pioneer's that came before them and helped get things to where they are.

    Keep in mind, Cooper and his ilk where dealing with the revolutionary idea of putting both hands on the gun and using the sights on close targets, to me that's the modern technique (note lack of capitalization) grip and stance are just further refinements down the road of improvement.

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    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Muhlenkamp View Post
    I've been told this is a hot topic, but I remain curious. Why are instructors eschewing "The Modern Technique" for more competition driven shooting techniques? Does it relate to the whole "fighting with a gun" thread that was posted a little while ago? And if so, how?
    In broadest terms, the modern iso technique has proven to be more efficient at controlling a handgun than the modern technique/Weaver technique/etc. It offers superior control of recoil and the ability to get shots on target faster.

    That being said, there are plenty of people who have won gunfights with the modern technique/Weaver technique/etc because in a gunfight lots of things matter a lot more than whether or not you're using the most efficient possible technique for controlling a handgun.

    Which side of the fence people come down on often relates to their training and experience. A lot of folks were brought into shooting under the shadow of Col. Cooper, either directly through his training or through contact with the scores of trainers in law enforcement and civilian world who were largely influenced by the Col. Lots of folks became quite good at hitting a target on demand using the modern/Weaver/etc technique, even to the point of prevailing over bad guys in armed conflict. For such folks the idea of switching away from something they've invested a lot of precious training hours in to gain an arguably theoretical advantage in shooting bad guys to the point of stopping their nonsense might not hold lots of appeal even if Rob Leatham can shoot faster than they can.

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    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    Hell of a post, Jeff.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

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    Member JHC's Avatar
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    And it seems like a useful clue that the people who've done the most fighting with a gun seem to predominantly use the iso approach vs the weaver. Cooper used to rail against the public sector shooters but that was in a galaxy long long ago.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

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    The "Modern Technique" (more appropriately "Weaver" these days, as it is anything but modern) was revolutionary and critical to the widespread acceptance of serious, objectively measured practical shooting. I don't care whether you think of practical shooting as IPSC or gunfights, being able to hit what you want, where you want, when you want, as many times as you want is an important practical skill.

    But as Jeff pointed out above, over time new developments came to the fore. Most serious shooters don't hold the pistol in a thumb-over-thumb grip anymore. Most don't use a Weaver stance. Most don't believe in the "speed rock" as a close quarters technique. Etc. There have been any number of evolutionary changes since MT was the dominant force in handgunning.

    If you're not smart enough to respect what Jeff Cooper and his cadre did for the shooting world, you're an idiot. But if you're still beholden to those 40+ year old techniques and have buried your head in the sand regarding the reality of what works better, you're equally an idiot.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    If you're not smart enough to respect what Jeff Cooper and his cadre did for the shooting world, you're an idiot. But if you're still beholden to those 40+ year old techniques and have buried your head in the sand regarding the reality of what works better, you're equally an idiot.
    /thread

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