Service Pistol Selection - (Help Me)-

[MD7305]

I have been given an assignment to help select my department's next handgun. This is an endeavor that I've never been involved in and I'm looking for any input or suggestion from those of you have completed such a process. Some background, my department consists of 28 officers (currently) and we are currently issued DA/SA Sig Sauer P229 .40 pistols carried in Safariland SSIII 070 holsters. Some of our recent hires are carrying P229Rs in Safariland 6360s. The oldest 229s repalced old S&W Mod.19s and are approximately 15 years old. The only instructions I've been given are to sort through the options available from different manufactures, stay with .40S&W, and no 1911s. No requirements for a specific configuration (DAO, Striker, DAK, LEM, DA/SA, etc) at this point. My administrator freely admits he does not favor Glocks but says he will respect any recommendations and results. I'm a Glock fan but I'm trying to be objective.

As of now I've been contacting the regional LE sales represenatives for some manufacturers. The following pistols and manufacturers are of interest:

-Glock 22 and 23 (Gen4)
-S&W M&Pf
-Sig 226 and 229
-HK P30 LEM
-Springfield Armory XDM 4.25 (my admin. likes XDs).

Some of the features that I believe will be of benefit are:
-Ambi-controls
-Night Sights
-Adjustable Grip Sizes adaptable to a variety of hand sizes.
-Relatively Simple Manual of Arms
-Easy to Maintain
-Safariland 6360 available for the model chosen.
-Possibility for WML

At this very early stage the plan is to aquire some T&E guns, allow some of our more and less proficient shooters try them out, rate them, and narrow the field down.

Ultimately the department would like to select a pistol that is reliable, durable, and works for the majority of our folks. The administrator wants some armorer training to go with the transisiton and money is NOT the driving factor but not blowing our wad is a goal too.

If any of you folks have a set policy on this matter I would really appreciate any info. If you can offer any guidance, suggestions, warnings I could certainly that help as well. Feel free to PM me.

Thanks!
Matt

[TGS]

Nix the XD ASAP. The XD has that silly grip safety which is easily not depressed during one-handed firing. In addition, if the grip safety breaks as some have, then the slide is locked forward and cannot be racked. This means the gun is stuck with a chambered round.

As to SIG, I'd be wary given their lackluster QC over the past few years.

I would personally say the P30 in LEM would be the best pistol, but I imagine that HK's prices and post-purchase support won't be very friendly for your department. I'm a bit of an HK fanboy, admittedly. I honestly don't think that a higher quality pistol is built today than HK's.

I think the M&P would be the best value for you to look at as I personally think the grip would be better for department issue vice the Glock, unless you're really hurting for funds, at which point the Glock would be king. Glock offered to replace Metro PD's Glock 17's(Washington DC) at $320 per unit, along with buying back their beat-ass Gen 1's (I think, they're old as dirt in any case) at $100 per unit. That means they were offered brand new Glock's at $220, along with the exemplary post-sale support. DC, being the cheap bastards they are, opted to keep their old Glocks.

You may want to PM the site creator, ToddG. He's done this professionally as a consultant to ATF's latest weapons procurement program of over $80mil, which according to his profile is the largest non-military weapons procurement in US history. Not sure if he'd be able to help you or not, but it's worth a PM.

[DocGKR]

"...my department consists of 28 officers (currently) and we are currently issued DA/SA Sig Sauer P229 .40 pistols carried in Safariland SSIII 070 holsters................The only instructions I've been given are to sort through the options available from different manufactures, stay with .40S&W, and no 1911s............Ultimately the department would like to select a pistol that is reliable, durable, and works for the majority of our folks. The administrator wants some armorer training to go with the transisiton and money is NOT the driving factor but not blowing our wad is a goal too."

Your agency is too small to run any sort of scientific pistol trial so you have to review and rely on what other larger agencies with greater resources have already discovered. The SA XD is an absolute no go--that is why NO significant LE agencies or U.S. military organizations use them. Given the above parameters, you have a very simple set of options--4th gen Glock 22 or S&W M&P40, with perhaps an outside nod to an HK P30. All three of these pistols offer adequate reliability and durability. The S&W and HK are the most adaptable to a wide range of hand sizes. The Glock is the easiest to service closely followed by the M&P; the HK is substantially harder to work on and only the largest agencies can afford to purchase the jigs and mounts that make servicing easier--on the other hand, the HK will probably require slightly less maintenance. The Glock and M&P have more readily available parts and accessories. The M&P comes with the option for a highly ergonomic safety--a feature which I personally prefer on a duty pistol.

[jlw]

I've been through this process a couple of times. I nixed the M&P40 in favor of the Glock 22 (had to go with .40SW unfortunately) due the lack of a distinctive reset in the M&P trigger. That was prior to Apex parts being available. If I had to make an agency purchase right now, I'd still go Glock unless S&W agreed to send my M&Ps with the Apex parts at no extra charge and consider them OEM pistol.

[Sparks2112]

Having shot the Glocks, M&P's and HK's pretty extensively I'd have to say the HKs are easilly the nicest of the group. They're also the most expensive and hardest to service. If you want to get an idea what they'd cost for the department send me a private message. I can get the LEO HKs and would be able to give you a price point using your 229s as a trade towards the P30's.

[Sparks2112]

On a side note HK has made LEM guns with frame mounted safeties. They are available if you know who to ask.

[Tamara]

-Springfield Armory XDM 4.25 (my admin. likes XDs).

Explain to your admin. that that's nice and all, but you like gun companies with Department Armorer programs and experience in supporting department-level purchases.

[KeeFus]

We just went through this to get rid of Hk's. Although slightly larger than you at 42 sworn our budget was almost nothing and the chief was less than interested in switching to a new platform due to budget constraints. When I presented this idea to the chief the response was that the costs had to be "cost neutral" for him to bite. I had to do a lot of leg work as well. We were getting ready to destroy a bunch of seized weapons. I had to get a Superior court judge to nix those orders and issue orders that would allow for us to sale/trade them. That saved us about $2200.00. Obviously the Hk trade saved us some money as well. I'd figure out what my budget was first then try to work within those parameters. Long story short: Glock wouldn't come off their price...S&W went out of their way to make us happy. We bought 48 S&W M&P 45's and 48 Safariland 6360 holsters for less than $300.00 which was about as cost neutral as you are gonna get it. When I made my final presentation to the chief/staff they were happy.

I know Glock & S&W will provide you with some T&E guns. We emailed everyone with the dates we would be at the range so that they could decide for themselves. You would be surprised how many people showed up outta 42...try less than 10! I'm a Glock fanboy and really wanted a G-21 again as my sidearm. Glock was "high-headed" (reps verbage...not mine) about the whole deal. Oh well, their loss.

If you shoot me a PM with your email I will gladly send you anything that I have that could help you in your process.

ETA: I would echo what everyone else says about the XD's. Not that you or anyone else should echo what other agencies are doing but I believe Mass and Vermont's State Police are now in the process of switching over to the M&P series of pistols.

[Chuck Haggard]

You have to think of a duty weapons as a system. Gun X may be the best pistol ever built, but if it doesn't have factory armorer support, available parts, available holsters, and you can't get Sim guns to mimic your duty weapon, then it's a no-go.

I'd go with the Glocks with the default being the S&Ws. With both you can get quality holsters, parts, magazines, armorer classes and support, and airsoft guns for FoF training. The advantage that Glock has is the red reset guns and factory Sim guns, as well as cost per pistol typically.

I'd even say go with 9mms due to ammo cost but that obviously isn't going to happen.


My department is about 300 sworn, in 2006 we went through a similar process and eventually ended up with G17s.

[DocGKR]

Unless they have unusual circumstances or a huge supply of ammunition already in place, most LE agencies would be far better off issuing 9 mm pistols...