Solid, factual information.
Solid, factual information.
He may have aimed that at the wrong audience lol. Luckily there are more good trainers than ever before, classes are more accessible than ever before. Unfortunately there are more trainers to sort through, and more bad classes to filter. I work hard here locally in South Louisiana to provide good training. I think the best thing people can do is stop settling for Space Camp. If you want good training demand it. As a small businessman I provide what the market demands, I'm luck to have a market with a sophisticated palette.
This is probably the best ideas yet. Get different points of view and use what is practical. I was in the military and was lucky enough to attend over 30 different firearms related courses. I picked a few things up along the way. That is why the "Elite" units out there bring in different instructors. Imagine if you could shoot as fast as a USPSA GM, as accurate as a Bulleyes champion and be as tactical as a SWAT operator. Miyamoto Musashi: Study everything, keep what is useful and do not limit yourself to any one system. The Book of Five Rings is worth reading.
Not picking on you, but you're limiting yourself and as most people, don't have a true grasp of an operator's mission. Our unit spent a lot of time going to different conceal carry type courses back in the day. After 9/11, there was a reason why the Air Marshals called on former SOF guys to teach their agents how to shoot. Many times I traveled in civilian clothes in locations where I didn't have "back-up" and I was "responsible for managing my personal safety against violent threats." What I learned about the criminals and predators in Bogota, Beirut, Baghdad, etc...has surely helped me out in US of A.
And yes you are correct: Thank goodness for trainers like John Murphy at FPF Training.
Couldn't agree more about learning from those guys, and really didn't want anyone to think otherwise. Some of my absolute best classes and instructors were from Mil guys who never spent a day in their life as a cop. The example I used as a difference between Mil and LE may have been flawed. Obviously what the individual brings as an instructor is far more important than what unit or agency they were in.
I will use LAV as an example, since I think it is a safe one. He may be a bit controversial on P-F, but I have spent literally weeks at a time on the range with him, both privately and open enrollment. He knows how to teach, and he knows what to teach, and with very few exceptions, he and I are on the same page. BTW, as good a shooting instructor as he is, he is way better at teaching CQB. Just BYOT (bring your own team). However, if you sign up for his class, thinking it will make you safer in a bad neighborhood, then you didn't do your homework. A combat marksmanship class, or a military CQB class does not prepare you for a mugging in a bad neighborhood, it works on your shooting mechanics, or in the case of CQB, team tactics for that particular problem. Other instructors, like Southnarc, have modules like MUC, that they are famous for. MUC is much more appropriate for a private citizen concerned about self defense. Even if you never got into the mechanics, MUC would be much more valuable than a marksmanship class IF YOU WANT TO DEAL WITH PREDATORY ANIMALS. MUC will not teach you how to shoot at a high level (or any level:-) You have to pick and choose to get the whole picture. That was really my point. Going to competition only classes would be just as bad as former Tier One classes, which would be just as bad as "self defense" only classes. I hope that was pretty clear, but I felt it might need restating.
Last edited by SLG; 03-29-2016 at 09:01 PM. Reason: clarity
There's one guy in thread featured in a zombie novel and that would be me
#RESIST
To echo other's response.
Very well said. I kind of came to this conclusion myself as I was considering the cost of a shooting class and my wife reiterated "That's just for the class?!" (Not mad just utter disbelief; I get it the guys are worth it but still. It's not cheap and more so the reason to scrutinize the training before signing up for it).
I realized although I like shooting AR's and I've spent a ton of money there; I'd be better off in class by SouthNarc for ECQC or MUC, etc. (as described by SLG), a Givens class, or Mike Pannone's concealed carry class. Because reality is, by the time I spend a $1,000; I don't need to worry about reloading from a vest, transitioning to a pistol, or putting magazines in a dump pouch.
I need to worry about a dude with a knife at a Red Box; that's more in line with reality for me. It's just where I'm most likely to be; it's the condition I've been every time I've seen a car crash, when I almost got mugged at a gas station, stomping out a fire in someone's back yard driving by, a person having a seizure (in an empty parking lot), or flat tire on a sketchy road or side of a highway, etc. I never intended to be there; I just think back to everything "bad" that's happened to me and the best armament and most likely armament I could've had is a handgun. Therefore, that's where I probably need to spend my money that and a first responder class.
I think SLG hits the nail on the head; I think pistols for military shooters (I'm not one nor have been one, or an LE shooter... it's debatable not even a good shooter ) is often a reserve-parachute. What makes me think that is I was reading an article (which I couldn't find after spending 5-10 minutes looking for it) I want to say published by a featured author for Defense Review; he was with ODA's in Afghanistan, etc. and he has posted 3 articles after deployments kind of detailing what weapons trends he saw among ODA's while over there; accessories chosen and other observances, etc. Anyway, the author mentioned that there was a high proliferation of 10.5'' guns in those ODA's even out in Afghanistan with the somewhat now notorious "longer shots", and what he mentioned was in reality the rifle was the backup for many of the guys they served with. They were often using some kind of fire support or crew served weapon when faced with opposition and they were using the MK 18's almost like PDW's (in and out of vehicles, light, and in and out of homes) when he really thought about it and that makes sense. It's for that reason; I think that guys could potentially do themselves a disservice expecting a ton of concealed carry input from guys that may have not done so in the job they performed in whatever service. Similarly, an individual could've just been a plain clothes officer training SWAT.
Anyway, I've said a lot in the presence of people that are beyond peers; I enjoyed the rant SLG. I think people are doing themselves a disservice going to a class and spending a lot of time learning a way to do something or use a weapon they won't be using without at least first going to a class that'll prepare them for a more likely for them situation.
Well said.
God Bless,
Brandon
ETA: I factor cost of travel, ammunition, the cost of the class itself, and meals into the $1,000 figure.
Last edited by BWT; 03-29-2016 at 10:32 PM.
Thanks for hitting on some good points SLG.
I have taken classes from a bunch of different instructors. Many of them wouldn't be recognized on this forum but I learned something from all of them even thought I didn't always agree with some of the curriculum.
It is one thing I like about this forum. As soon as someone says this is THE way, a couple other SME's and experienced people chime in and show them that their way may not line up with every scenario.
I will probably never kick in a door or jump out of an airplane into enemy territory but when the day comes to use my pistol to defend myself, I want to feel confident in the gun and the training I have received. The only way I seem to be able to confirm that confidence is by getting to the range and spending time with the gun I have chosen, weeding out the good instruction from the bad.
-Seconds Count. Misses Don't-
Good points very little rant. Thanks to places like P-F I came to many of the same conclusions I have no urgency to take that carbine class learning how to kick in doors. While I will probably take one for fun at some point at my level of training I'm much better off working on fundamentals. I am much more concerned with getting as good with a handgun as I can because even in a home invasion type scenario I don't think I'll be grabbing the carbine. I have two little kids to grab so I practice a lot of SHO. That's where I feel I am at. Many of us that frequent this forum are not typical gun owners we need to remember we are the minority. I think the training community as a whole is just subject to giving the customer what they want. Many people want to feed there dream of being the hero and have a good time and if they pick up a few tidbits along the way great. As a trainer your not going to have a successful business if people don't leave happy that's just reality. There are good trainers that have filled the niche that focuses on personal defense but at the end of they day I think we are getting the trainers we are asking for.