Banning the SERPA

[ToddG]

I understand you're not aware of a large number of SERPA-related suits. My point was, were you aware of the large number of suits related to Glock's takedown procedure? Lots of things like that happen in the industry without becoming widespread broadcasts. In most cases, settlement stipulates no public comment or disclosure by the injured party.

Regarding the issue of design flaw, perhaps we're just using words differently.

If an auto manufacturer created a system that used a single pedal for both gas and brake, pushing it slightly more right for gas and slightly more left for braking, you could certainly argue that someone adequately trained who does it the right way would never have a problem. But nonetheless, I'd bet big money that you'd see a lot more accidents with the one-pedal car when drivers made the car stop or go when they wanted it to do the opposite. Just because it's user error doesn't absolve the equipment.

The world is full of consumer products that have systems designed with human factors in mind to prevent accidents or injuries. The grate over your desk fan's blades isn't there because the manufacturer thinks you'll purposely shove your hand into the whirling maelstrom; it's because they understand that humans are capable of making mistakes. They design their product with that in mind and try to minimize the chance for a mistake.

We have some pilots on the forum. I bet they could tick off a long list of anti-pilot-error features on modern aircraft. As I said earlier in the thread, airline pilots get more hours of training, more scientifically tested and proven training, and more realistic training than probably 99% of the gun owners on the planet. Yet every year, a few of them frak up and kill a bunch of passengers along with themselves. If a seasoned professional pilot can have a brain fade and forget to put his landing gear down during a routine approach, it doesn't take much humility to admit I might make a mistake when confronted with sudden unexpected life-threatening harm.

It's not a black and white, either/or kind of problem. Yes, there needs to be operator error for an accident to occur with the SERPA. Guns don't spontaneously discharge in the holster without contact by a human being. But at the same time, there is plenty of evidence to show that the design is fundamentally more prone to those kinds of accidents. Many of us were able to predict that when we saw the prototypes however many years ago.

[JDM]

Here's some questions for everyone advocating the SERPA:

-Why do you continue to advocate this holster?
-What does the SERPA do, that a Safariland ALS or 5.11 Thumbdrive doesn't?
-Why is the SERPA even worth consideration when pitted against the two holsters I mentioned? None of them are concealable. They are all "quick" retention holsters. they all serve the same purpose. And the two that aren't the SERPA are actually well built.
-What benefits does the SERPA provide over the other comparable options, specifically the ones I mentioned?

[rudy99]

Until I have proof that a ND has resulted directly due to the SERPA design and not shooter error, I will not be banning them. YMMV

I doubt that it is possible to ever get the proof you are looking for. To me, the SERPA/lack of training argument is similar to the caliber/shot placement issue. People want to use a small caliber weapon and justify its use by claiming its effectiveness on the target is all about shot placement. Well, who is placing the shot? Similar to a training issue with SERPA, who is actually going to train? Is the typically SERPA user someone who would train themselves on its proper use or seek out any 3rd party to assist them?

You've also got to think something is up when there is this much controversy regarding a holster. Just google "blackhawk serpa problem" and "safariland als problem". Most of the SERPA results are related to concerns about its safety. Most of the ALS results are related to issues with fit and other superficial issues.

[David Armstrong]

Just because it's user error doesn't absolve the equipment.

One of my favorite complaints with trainers...."If they would just practice more" "If everyone would just do it right" "That won't happen if you alwys follow the rules" and similar homilies are great but they seem to ignore reality. Most folks won't practice more, everyone won't always do it right, not everyone will always follow the rules.

[Joseph B.]

Tactical Immersion has not banned the SERPA holster as of yet, and will not be doing so until documentation is available that the holster is in fact unsafe and that the holster has directly resulted to accidental discharges.

[vcdgrips]

Mr. Bell,

Thank you for your service, past present and future.

Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.
On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present thier pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certain can contibute to that issue.

More disturbingly, on at least two seperate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.

I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on thre ground prior to presenting the weapon.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1300+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.

Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.
While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instuctor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.

On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.
Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.

Be safe and well,
David Barnes

[Sparks2112]

I guess the part that baffles me is why this is even a hard decision for some folks. Let me share some personal experience. I have an almost three year old son. When my wife was pregnant I worked three jobs, bought us a house blah blah blah.oney was extremely tight. Anyway, my wife and I bought him a drop side crib. After he was born there were a few incidents where children were injured in drop side cribs. Now this was a very small sampling keep in mind. We bought a new crib, even though we were pretty close to dirt poor at the time (having a kid with no health insurance is expensive.)

My point is this. Let's take out of the equation whether or not the Serpa causes accidents or locks guns up. The mere fact SO many people are calling the design into doubt should be enough to seriously evaluate it.

1. Does the Serpa offer any advantages that other products don't provide?) NO
2. Are there similar designs that offer the same features and have a less questionable reputation?) YES
3. Did any of us design the Serpa, receive royalties for each Serpa sold, marry the thing?) NO

I don't know about anyone else but if there's a similarly priced product that does the same thing and isn't trashed by some major names in the industry who don't routinely go around trashing things I'm going to maybe pay attention. It doesn't hurt me to not buy a Serpa, so why hold onto the thing so hard?

[Joseph B.]

Mr. Bell,

Thank you for your service, past present and future.

Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.
On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present thier pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certain can contibute to that issue.

More disturbingly, on at least two seperate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.

I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on thre ground prior to presenting the weapon.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1300+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.

Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.
While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instuctor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.

On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.
Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.

Be safe and well,
David Barnes

Mr. Barnes,

Thank you for the insight and I do appreciate the advice and experience. I am by no means stating that the SERPA is a good or the best design; I think the thumb drive and the ALS are better holsters. But my position is that out of the hundreds of thousands of people who do use the SERPA, I am effectively cutting my possible marketing down significantly by stating “the SERPA is banned, regardless how safe you may be with the holster, and regardless if the holster is (or is not) proved to be flawed in design”. Being a new business, I cannot afford to do that, and I also understand that the holster can in fact be used correctly and safely. I used it for 4 years in the Army during competitive shooting, deployment and instructing deploying soldiers.

I would not be opposed to stating that “if you use a SERPA you must also have an external slide safety”. I already give a detailed safety brief regarding the holster; I already make it clear that if a student fails to be safe they will be required to leave a course. But I am a bit uneasy about outright banning the holster, without some form of a document to state why I am actually banning the holster. If someone asked me “why” as of right now, all I can say is that a few LEA’s and other trainers have banned them for being unsafe, so I followed in there process. I don’t feel that would represent my business well or my personal beliefs and or how I would like to represent my company and or name.

I have no problem banning the holster, once I have documentation. I really do wish to reduce any possible future liabilities (and I do see where the SERPA can be a major liability). But I also need to do so without disrupting my business image, my marketing base and without irritating the many safe users of the SERPA. I have never recommended a SERPA and I will never do so, but banning them brings up too many issues for me to just do it based off of word of mouth. I need a memo, a lawsuit docket, something to post up on my website to say “we have banned the SERPA and this is why”.

Respectfully,

[Shellback]

It has become popular of late to bash Blackhawk’s SERPA holster as unsafe and while I understand the concern expressed, it simply is not true. The mishaps that have occurred with the SERPA are shooter error not a poor holster design.

Author of article - Dave Spaulding is the 2010 Law Officer Trainer of the Year

[Sparks2112]

It has become popular of late to bash Blackhawk’s SERPA holster as unsafe and while I understand the concern expressed, it simply is not true. The mishaps that have occurred with the SERPA are shooter error not a poor holster design.

Author of article - Dave Spaulding is the 2010 Law Officer Trainer of the Year

It's funny how someone that you respect and admire can lose almost all credibility you once gave them and their thoughts with one simple statement. :-(