The 40cal on its way out?

[Sportster883]

I was sincerely asking why you mentioned the GAP before, and now I see that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Neither the GAP info or your modest personal ammo use has anything to do with this discussion.

Say what?

That's how you read it, not how I said it, I am just posting what happened with the 40 in a historically correct reporting. You made it sound like the 40 was purchased by choice. It was mostly based on economics, pay for the competitin or get a G22 for free. In a time when gangs ruled the streets and had better firepower than old revolvers and worn out old smith alloy frame 9mm pistols. It made sense to take free 40 caliber glocks. Not arguing with anyone. He just used the same game plan with the GAP. Worked for 40 so why not with the GAP. That's why it was mentioned. It is what it is. I don't let emotion get in the way of what things are actually like.

I like that dig at the end. Made me chuckle. Because it only enforces what I said earlier. Police would have to shoot 600 rounds to every one I fire to just equal ammo purchased by non sworn types. Let's say you shoot 3x what I do in a year. Every police officer would have to shoot 1,800 rounds for every one you fire to just equal rounds fired. For your statement they shoot more rounds total you would have to double that to make it significant. So they would have to be shooting 3,600 rounds for every round you fire. Police combined would have to buy and shoot annually 3,600,000,000. Police would spend the entire day shooting instead of patrolling if what you said was true, every single day they were working.

[HCM]

While Glock swapping free 40's for "pre-ban" 9mm's in order to profiteer during the 1994 federal assault weapons ban did help spread the .40 to some state and local agencies, many organizations,including my own and I suspect SLGs, were already going to the 40 based on the performance of the ammunition available at that time. The 9 mm ammunition available at that timehad issues with penetration and performance when going through intermediate barriers such as autobodies and auto glass. Modern 9 mm duty loads such as the Gold Dot and Ranger have leveled the playing field.

Regarding ammunition used by law-enforcement, it runs the gamut. Policing is regional an individual agencies have their own culture, this includes things like attitudes towards training, round counts guns etc. my department/agency is the largest purchaser and user of 40 caliber ammunition in the world. On average, our officers/agents or fire 802,000 rounds per year. But some on special teams or assignments might fire between 10,000 and 20,000 rounds per year. Deputies with the local sheriffs department who's range we share, will normally fire 100 to 150 rounds per year while our local city Police Department will fire 5 times that amount. Other agencies I've worked with in our area fire the state minimum, 50 rounds per year. Regardless, of their training tempo, law-enforcement will usually spend considerably more on ammunition then on firearms themselves. Agency cost for our issued handgunit's about $400 with night sights and four magazines.The average agent referenced above will fire approximately $2000-$2500 worth of ammunition through that $400 gun during its ten year service life. Due to economies of scale, our agency price for 40 caliber is actually lower than our price for 9 mm but this is not the norm. Saving five cents per round may not seem like much, but it adds up when you're buying two or 3 million rounds per year for a medium sized agency.

[HCM]

Regarding the clean law-enforcement would have to fire 3 billion rounds per year to equal civilian consumption, I think you're comparing apples to oranges.The 3 billion rounds would most likely include all ammunition types.

I would be surprised if Private citizens in the US were actually firing 3 billion rounds of handgun ammunition per year

Now, 3 billion rounds of heavy dove loads fired during each Texas dove season I could believe :-)

[Rich]

Rich,

Your ideas are simply not supported by reality. How many more times does someone need to point this out? We break .40 Glocks on a regular basis at under 10,000 rds. Never seen any other caliber do that, except 10mm. Edited: I don't think for a second that most gun companies have any kind of an accurate clue about how long their guns will hold up. If they do, I don't think they'll give you an accurate number. I've heard all sorts of speculation from them. A few know better than the rest, due to Mil/LE testing, but that involves a specific protocol, that most users will not follow.

BWT and 883,

I agree with much of what you guys have said, but I'll cherry pick a couple of areas. Though LE is a small % of the gun owning public, LE Agencies buy way more ammo than the rest of the public combined. That is what drives the .40, both its popularity, and its possible decline. Military use of the .40 also boosts sales, and by quite a bit. As for the .45GAP, the only reason 10% of LE agencies issue it (your numbers, not mine) is because Glock gave them away for nothing. Usually took a loss to do so. No one has adopted it of their own volition, afaik. So I'm not sure what it has to do with this discussion (seriously, not being sarcastic).

Pointing out the Glock in 40cal really doesn't prove anything except glock cant make a proper 40cal pistol . My 17yr old P229 is just fine. I haven't heard any HK issues or M&P 40S&W

[Rich]

[QUOTE=JBP55;304156]

I sent Emails asking handgun manufactures a question about service life

A 9mm service pistol feed a steady diet of Win Ranger T 127gr+P+ VS 40cal service pistol

I wonder how much longer service life the 9mm pistol will have when compared to the 40cal[/QUOTE}

Compare the 127+P+ to 155, 124+P to 165 and 147 to 180 in the same size/type pistol and get back with us. I think it is common knowledge that 9mm pistols outlast .40 pistols of the same type/size.

Why cant I compare 127gr +P+ to the 180 40S&W load? its on the list

Interesting .
I'm aware ALL you guys think Im wrong! And it wont be the first time.



I sent Sam a Email

P30 9mm fed a steady diet a win ranger +P+ & +P
P30 40S&W fed a steady diet of 180gr

how much longer life will the P30 9mm have



BTW did anyone miss that I agree that 9mm service last longer when feed a steady diet of standard pressure 9mm loads 124gr/147gr. I can see that.


Not so much when 9mm pistols are feed +P and +P+

[Rich]

While Glock swapping free 40's for "pre-ban" 9mm's in order to profiteer during the 1994 federal assault weapons ban did help spread the .40 to some state and local agencies, many organizations,including my own and I suspect SLGs, were already going to the 40 based on the performance of the ammunition available at that time. The 9 mm ammunition available at that timehad issues with penetration and performance when going through intermediate barriers such as autobodies and auto glass. Modern 9 mm duty loads such as the Gold Dot and Ranger have leveled the playing field.

Regarding ammunition used by law-enforcement, it runs the gamut. Policing is regional an individual agencies have their own culture, this includes things like attitudes towards training, round counts guns etc. my department/agency is the largest purchaser and user of 40 caliber ammunition in the world. On average, our officers/agents or fire 802,000 rounds per year. But some on special teams or assignments might fire between 10,000 and 20,000 rounds per year. Deputies with the local sheriffs department who's range we share, will normally fire 100 to 150 rounds per year while our local city Police Department will fire 5 times that amount. Other agencies I've worked with in our area fire the state minimum, 50 rounds per year. Regardless, of their training tempo, law-enforcement will usually spend considerably more on ammunition then on firearms themselves. Agency cost for our issued handgunit's about $400 with night sights and four magazines.The average agent referenced above will fire approximately $2000-$2500 worth of ammunition through that $400 gun during its ten year service life. Due to economies of scale, our agency price for 40 caliber is actually lower than our price for 9 mm but this is not the norm. Saving five cents per round may not seem like much, but it adds up when you're buying two or 3 million rounds per year for a medium sized agency.

Thanks for the reply . Sometimes I do find the 40S&W LE loads cheaper. I also find it instock more often. 180 HST

I swear every single time I have the cash and try to order 9mm HST its out of stock. I guess I'm lucky to have 3 boxes of standard pressure HST

[Rich]

Why would any sane agency issue 127 +P+ given the fantastic lower pressure options currently available?

I have no Idea.

Back in 2005 I bought 4boxes when you said it was good to use high pressure loads in short barrel 9mm pistols.

After you revised it. I haven't used any since . BTW Want to buy 2 boxes of 2005 head stamp 127gr +P+ LOL


I prefer low recoil loads since my hands ache.

I would use federal tactical 124gr Bonded standard pressure but every time I come up with the cash it isn't in stock.
I was using a load not on the list Federal 124gr standard pressure HST. but moved to golden saber 124gr +P bonded because of your results and others also its under 1200 fps. And my dislocated fingers have gotten better.

[Chuck Haggard]

Outside of weapon durability issues, which exist in many platforms, ammo cost at the agency level is a very real thing.

When I was running our program I could consistently buy 9mm ammo for 30% less than .40 ammo, and for half the cost of .45s. I would get a budget, and that budget was set. They were not going to double my budget if I decided we needed .45s, we would just shoot half as much. That my troops could get 30% more practice from a lower recoil platform for the same money was indeed a big deal.

In full sized service pistols many people run a .40 rather well, I was one of those people, but many do not. Even very accomplished shooters find dropping to the compact guns to be a point where the .40 "juice ain't worth the squeeze" as a certain CAG guy that Doc and I talk to has put it.

Long term, heavier recoil can be a very real issue, especially for guys who shoot a lot. In 2006 when we had all of our Glock 22 problems, I put almost 10,000 rounds through various G22s in the space of three months, working on documenting issues and testing ammo. In doing so I appear to have permanently fucked myself up.

The disparity in cumulative recoil between a gen 3 G17 or 19 and a gen 3 G22 (trying to be apples to apples here) is that I can run through a 1000-1500 round training class over a weekend and be GTG with the 9mms, if I run a 50 round qual course with the .40s I am icing my gun hand and elbow the next day.

I can gunfight with a .40 just fine, and run a full size gun almost as well as I can a 9mm, splitting hairs on the timer, but one has to be able to train with the system as well in order to keep one's skills up.

I'm not the only shooter at my former job with issues running a .40 through high round count training. It has nothing to do with being a wuss. After our transition class many of our meat eater SWAT guys with double body weight bench press (I was one of those guys at the time) had hands that were ate up from running 600 rounds of .40 through their guns in two days. The IBOs had it even worse.

The argument that "I have this one gun and it runs fine" in no way diminishes the fact that at the agency level the .40, consistently, across the board, regardless of platform, cause more weapon durability issues than any other service caliber (except maybe the .357Sig, but similar recoil, etc., and sample size is pretty damn small, so hard to tell...).

What does one get for the increased cost and issues that the .40 brings to the table? Damn little, if anything, in my observation.

One reason the FBI is swapping to the 9 is that the BRU can document that their issues 9mm ammo equals their issued .40 ammo in testing, and exceeds their issued .45acp ammo. That is a fact.



No JHP cuts a hole as wide as the expanded bullet, and RN or SWC ammo certainly does not cut a full caliber wide hole (I have seen up to .45acp FMJRN entrance wounds that had closed up completely, you had to physically move the tissue with a finger to see the wound).

All of the service caliber handgun bullets leave basically the same hole in/through tissue, a doctor looking at a shooting victim or a coroner at a murder victim can not tell the wound path of a .38/9mm from a .40 or a .45. I have numerous docs on record as saying that if they don't find the bullet in the body, then they have no idea which pistol caliber would have caused the wound.

Fact.

If the doctor can't tell the difference then how does the guy that got shot know?
(In the FWIW department; two friends who are a coroner and a trauma surgeon respectively both carry Glock 19s loaded with 124gr +P Gold Dot, due to the capacity, reliability, shootability, and ease of concealment of this platform, along with professional observation of how bullets work in general and how these bullets work specifically. I'll note both of these guys are smarter than me. The coroner thinks that 9mms are more reliable wounders due to expanding more reliably, this due to having higher velocities than the bigger bullets, just his observation across the board on shootings involving JHPs).




Check these out;
Win 230 gr Ranger Talon JHP (RA45T) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 911 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 12.3", Ave RD = 0.70", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 227.2gr
4LD: Pen = 25.1", Ave RD = 0.45", Ave RL = 0.60", Ave RW = 228.8 gr
AG: Pen = 16.1", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.48", Ave RW = 189.6 gr

Fed HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2) fired from 1911 at ave vel of 879 f/s; 5 shot ave below::
BG: Pen = 12.6", Ave RD = 0.80", Ave RL = 0.44", Ave RW = 231.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 13.4", Ave RD = 0.55", Ave RL = 0.71", Ave RW = 231.2 gr
AG: Pen = 16.3", Ave RD = 0.54", Ave RL = 0.58", Ave RW = 230.6 gr

vs

9mm Fed 147 gr HST JHP; ave vel=997 fps (G19)
BG: pen=14.6", RD=0.61", RL=0.39", RW=147.1gr
4LD: pen=15.6", RD=0.56", RL=0.53", RW=145.5gr

Win 124 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA124TP) fired from G17 at ave vel of 1238 f/s; 5 shot ave below:
BG: Pen = 13.0”, RD = 0.62”, RL= 0.35", RW = 114.7gr
4LD: Pen = 13.0”, RD = 0.59”, RL= 0.40", RW = 116.8gr
AG: Pen = 18.9”, RD = 0.50”, RL= 0.52", RW = 117.5gr

vs

.40 S&W Fed 180 gr HST JHP; ave vel=959 fps (S&W 4006)
BG: pen=14.0", RD=0.70", RL=0.43", RW=181.2gr
4LD: pen=15.0", RD=0.56", RL=0.52", RW=180.7gr

Note in my cherry picked tests, bolding the four layer denim test to illustrate (Which BTW is a very street realistic test in my observation of bullets recovered from real bodies), the 147gr 9mm beats both the .40 and .45 by either more expansion or more penetration, or both.

Even through auto glass, the event where the bigger bullets are supposed to have some sort of huge edge, the 124gr non-bonded +P Ranger-T gives better penetration in the noted testing.

The truth is, on average, they all work about the same, and they all work as well as can be expected with pistols, if the shooter has all their crap in one bag, if not then none of them work.

One of the guys on this board has seen a rather significant number of people shot with 9mm NATO ball, and the bad guys shot "were not unimpressed with the cartridge".
In a recent conversation with Pat Rogers he relayed that in his experience the old NYPD issed .38 service load, a LSWC, "worked pretty good, it you could shoot".

To steal a quote from the late Stephen Camp, "Placement is power". If you are hitting the A/down 0/K5 zone, then bad guys tend to go down pretty fast. If you shoot them around the edges then not so much for the most part. If our job as trainers is to get the troops hitting the A zone under stress, then we need to have a systems approach to our program and make sure the troops can do that.

As a program approach, 9mm makes sense, and the very slight, possible, maybe greater wound ballistics of the .40 in no way overcomes the disadvantages it brings to the table.


In the FWIW department, my old job started issuing the 124gr +P Gold Dot just after that loading became available. We've never had a failure to stop with that loading, on bad guys or large mean dogs, never shot anyone more than four times (all of the those were close range burst shooting where the bad guy couldn't fall fast enough), and have shot numerous bad guys in cars without any barrier issues.

Recoil is very similar to 124gr NATO, most certainly less than any decent .40 load I have fired, and our officers find it easy to control, even shooting one handed, even from G19s and G26s.

Since we had a 100% hit rate going for awhile, at one point nine OISs over the space of 18 months were 100% hits, and have maintained a very high hit rate across the board for a very long time, I have to think we are doing something right.

[Sportster883]

[QUOTE=Rich;304328]

Why cant I compare 127gr +P+ to the 180 40S&W load? its on the list

Interesting .
I'm aware ALL you guys think Im wrong! And it wont be the first time.



I sent Sam a Email

P30 9mm fed a steady diet a win ranger +P+ & +P
P30 40S&W fed a steady diet of 180gr

how much longer life will the P30 9mm have



BTW did anyone miss that I agree that 9mm service last longer when feed a steady diet of standard pressure 9mm loads 124gr/147gr. I can see that.


Not so much when 9mm pistols are feed +P and +P+

Depends on where the gun was made really. European, we'll just about all other manufacturers around the world build 9mm pistols around CIP spec ammo, not SAAMI spec ammo. European pistols are sent out to CIP proofing before sale, all of them. You won't see any plus signs or capital Ps on the box either. While the ammo is infact SAAMI +P and beyond. If all anyone shoots is SAAMI spec in a European 9mm then they are shooting ammo that is much easier on the gun than it is designed for. It will last much longer shooting lower psi ammo.

Powders these days are capable of creating larger volumes of gas without increasing chamber psi aswell, so we have faster loads with lower psi. My CIP loading manual has a 147 XTP 9x19 load fired from a test smith and Wesson 4" test pistol with a velocity of 1208fps, or 35fps slower than the fastest 357 SIG load in the same weight. The psi is still 1700psi below CIP max allowed psi, but its a real kicker and would be considered +P+ of it was in a SAAMI loading manual or manufactured in the USA.

Note the max CIP PSI in my manual.




Even CIP 40 is slightly hotter for max psi at 36,200 psi.

So if you shoot a European 9x19mm pistol don't worry about so called +P ammo, all of it will still be weaker than the pistol was designed to shoot on a regular and steady basis.

[SamAdams]

Interesting conversation, especially Chuck's last post.
I keep pistols in all the service chamberings. Learned my lesson from the Big Ammo Panic of 2012.

That said, I have only one dedicated 40, an all steel Sig P239. Heavy for a compact, but handles the round well because of that. Bought it years ago because I wanted at least one pistol in 40 and had read very good reviews on it. It's a great gun. My other 40 shooters are Glock 20sf 10mm pistols with 40 conversion barrels. They are soft shooters of the 40 and I have no concerns about their durability in that role.

That said, I've got 45acp and 40 covered. My next pistol will be another G19.