Gel vs. Real World as relates to "yaw" ?

[DocGKR]

STOP! RTF now. I can scarcely believe this garbage is still showing up...

That document as presented is an incomplete, bastardized version of a FBI analysis of the PA fight that was produced to correct the innumerable errors in the local coroner's poorly written initial autopsy report that was the source of much internet speculation and rumormongering about the incident. The FBI document was NOT authorized to be publicly released and the person who stole it was severely disciplined.

This BS has been coming up for years now like some kind of hydra--wack it off and it just springs up again anew.

The PA incident in question has lots of valid data worth learning if you are an LE responder, but repeating the public misinformation over this document and incident is an indubitable indicator that the person is blind, illiterate, ignorant, or perhaps some combination of these three afflictions.

One take away pearl is that fragmenting .223 rounds with poor barrier penetration capability are probably a BAD choice for gunfights involving vehicles.

As the FBI document states:

"There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only."

Let's try to avoid that here at PF...

[DocGKR]

As to the original question, I suspect your confusion is based on the fact that the penetration depths of upset bullets in living tissue are frequently a bit different than those exhibited in properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. This is often due to the tough, resilient characteristics of the skin on the exit side of the body. This strong, flexible skin can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches of muscle and often causes bullets to end their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than exiting, as would be expected based on the deeper penetration results seen in ordnance gelatin. This is why on autopsy, recovered bullets are frequently found just under the exit side skin or in the victims clothing.

In most properly conducted post-mortem evaluations, there is indeed a rough 1:1 ratio between gel and torso tissue––for example, Gene Wolberg's study of nearly 150 SDPD OIS incidents showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated about 13" and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. While there was a greater range of results in human tissue than in gel, the averages where nearly identical. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results––there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. You just have to understand the anatomy and variables involved while making an evaluation.

[Unobtanium]

As to the original question, I suspect your confusion is based on the fact that the penetration depths of upset bullets in living tissue are frequently a bit different than those exhibited in properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. This is often due to the tough, resilient characteristics of the skin on the exit side of the body. This strong, flexible skin can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches of muscle and often causes bullets to end their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than exiting, as would be expected based on the deeper penetration results seen in ordnance gelatin. This is why on autopsy, recovered bullets are frequently found just under the exit side skin or in the victims clothing.

In most properly conducted post-mortem evaluations, there is indeed a rough 1:1 ratio between gel and torso tissue––for example, Gene Wolberg's study of nearly 150 SDPD OIS incidents showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated about 13" and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. While there was a greater range of results in human tissue than in gel, the averages where nearly identical. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results––there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. You just have to understand the anatomy and variables involved while making an evaluation.

Thanks! I had known about the skin on the posterior trunk in the case of exits, but wondered if the skin on the anterior also played a role, especially with bullets which yaw, as I would presume thicker/harder mediums result in quicker yaw cycles than would gel.

I have seen that pdf about the 18 year old and knew the initial conclusions were bunk, as the pathologist who analyzed the body had no clue about GSW's, apparently. However, I was unaware that some rounds struck a barrier, and was indeed baffled at the lack of efficacy of the 75gr T2's.

That said, and to piggy back onto this topic, have you seen any LE agencies issuing the T556TNB1 loading in response to barriers/penetration concerns? ATK is loading it in white boxes with that part number "for LE sales", and continues to do so. Since it's not typically sold to civilians (although easily bought, kindof like TAP 5.56 ammo), and the military gets it as AB49 in brown boxes...SOMEONE must be using it? How's that working out?

[DocGKR]

I am baffled why anyone not in the military would issue that ammo in its current non-bonded format (in contrast to the superb bonded TOTM version) given the ready availability of much better bonded projectiles like 55 & 62 gr TBBC, 64 gr Nosler bonded (as used in Win FBI load), 62 gr CLUB, 62/64 gr Gold Dot & Fusion, 75 gr Scirocco, or even the monolithic copper projectiles like TSX and GMX.

Skin on entrance does not change things much, as the projectile is still point forward and efficiently punches through.

[Paul]

But, but, but over-penetration, what about the mothers carrying their babies in the background. We all know it's safer to have a high round count (and high miss count) gun fight with less effective ammo, than getting the job done fast and have a couple bullets passing through a bad guy.

What happened to them? Did they strike barriers or extended extremities first? Otherwise, I fail to see how they could fail to significantly penetrate on the target described. He looked relatively "normal" medically.

Drug test only can only find what they are looking for. The time of the shooting, 2006, "bath salts" and other designer drugs were starting to show back up as efforts to cut down on home cooked meth were ramping up. I'm not saying what the case is, but without knowing how comprehensive the tox screen was, it's impossible to know. There are some people that with the right psych disorders and a little marijuana that can go absolutely berserk. The guy could have been a true believer and/or he could have just been juiced up. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, however he managed to get into his state of mind the problem was the same.

Yet routinely, I read of expended ammunition being recovered from 130# crack fiend's clothing after OIS's.

It's not uncommon for crack heads to wear every piece of clothing they own. A crackhead wearing 2 jackets, 3 sweat shirts, and 4 or 5 t-shirts is not uncommon in the summer. We're talking inches of material, it's basically body armor.

[Unobtanium]

I am baffled why anyone not in the military would issue that ammo in its current non-bonded format (in contrast to the superb bonded TOTM version) given the ready availability of much better bonded projectiles like 55 & 62 gr TBBC, 64 gr Nosler bonded (as used in Win FBI load), 62 gr CLUB, 62/64 gr Gold Dot & Fusion, 75 gr Scirocco, or even the monolithic copper projectiles like TSX and GMX.

Skin on entrance does not change things much, as the projectile is still point forward and efficiently punches through.

I understand, but nevertheless, they continue to pump it out, and SOMEONE has to be buying it...who? It's not on civ. legal sites except one, and the military has their own boxes (brown) and part number (A49). So...who's buying enough to make it worth-while to re-box and have another part number in the system?

[Unobtanium]

But, but, but over-penetration, what about the mothers carrying their babies in the background. We all know it's safer to have a high round count (and high miss count) gun fight with less effective ammo, than getting the job done fast and have a couple bullets passing through a bad guy.



Drug test only can only find what they are looking for. The time of the shooting, 2006, "bath salts" and other designer drugs were starting to show back up as efforts to cut down on home cooked meth were ramping up. I'm not saying what the case is, but without knowing how comprehensive the tox screen was, it's impossible to know. There are some people that with the right psych disorders and a little marijuana that can go absolutely berserk. The guy could have been a true believer and/or he could have just been juiced up. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, however he managed to get into his state of mind the problem was the same.



It's not uncommon for crack heads to wear every piece of clothing they own. A crackhead wearing 2 jackets, 3 sweat shirts, and 4 or 5 t-shirts is not uncommon in the summer. We're talking inches of material, it's basically body armor.

Really? I used to work with a bunch of felons and am aware of some of their habits (carry ALL their money on them. You want change for $100? Ask a thug. He'll ask how many 20's or a 50 or whatever you want if he's feeling generous), etc. but that's a new one. Maybe it's regional?

[Chuck Haggard]

I had occasion to talk directly with some folks involved in that fight and the investigation afterwards.

It was a running gunfight in and around parked cars. The bad guy was rather dedicated to what he was trying to do. Note that ugly .223 hit to his foot did not shut him down one bit (that had to hurt like hell), and he was still shooting back after the .40 bullet broke his humerus. The bad guy didn't know how to reload one handed, this brought the gunfight to a halt, however he was stilling fighting afterwards, fought going into cuffs, fought the ambulance crew, kept fighting until he bled out.

Tox screen was negative. Could be designer drugs, my info is this was just a case of a serious asshole who was angry, wasn't going back to prison, and decided to kill responding officers. Note similar dynamics with Platt and Matix in the Miami/FBI fight

[Chuck Haggard]

Ref gel penetration;

Our issued duty load at my job is the 124gr +P Gold Dot, a well known and tested round. That bullet exhibits penetration into the 15" range in heavy clothing or 4LD testing, and we have established that this would appear to be well more than needed for shooting bad people. In almost every OIS we had that round either stuck under the skin on exit, or was caught in the suspect's clothing, or popped out and dropped to the ground inside of ten feet.

Just one example of observation of a large sample.

[Beat Trash]

I had occasion to talk directly with some folks involved in that fight and the investigation afterwards.

It was a running gunfight in and around parked cars. The bad guy was rather dedicated to what he was trying to do. Note that ugly .223 hit to his foot did not shut him down one bit (that had to hurt like hell), and he was still shooting back after the .40 bullet broke his humerus. The bad guy didn't know how to reload one handed, this brought the gunfight to a halt, however he was stilling fighting afterwards, fought going into cuffs, fought the ambulance crew, kept fighting until he bled out.

Tox screen was negative. Could be designer drugs, my info is this was just a case of a serious asshole who was angry, wasn't going back to prison, and decided to kill responding officers. Note similar dynamics with Platt and Matix in the Miami/FBI fight

It is easy to get caught up in the quest for that "magic bullet" and spend hours pouring over minute differences in data and performance of various loads. There is logic and wisdom in trying to obtain the best ammunition and weapons available to you and your officers. But this will not compensate for a lack of shot placement and timely deployment of good tactics.

In the end, some people just require "more killing" than others. The secret is to want to stay alive more than they want to kill you.