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Thread: Gel vs. Real World as relates to "yaw" ?

  1. #1
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    Gel vs. Real World as relates to "yaw" ?

    When it comes to expansion, gel seems to mirror the real world pretty well unless bones or some other structure are impacted. However, I have noticed that penetration from gel tests does not necessarily carry over to real-world, such is the case with the 124gr 9mm Gold Dot, which regularly penetrates well over 12" in gel. Not many upper chests are more than 12" thick unless we are talking about a chronic COPD patient who is morbidly obese. Even then, the upper chest area typically is not 16" thick in my experiences. A good bit of that is lung, and if the sternum is not impacted, there is potentially "no bone" there, either.

    Same for other aspects of the body.

    Yet routinely, I read of expended ammunition being recovered from 130# crack fiend's clothing after OIS's.

    The penetration in gel simply does not compute with the real world, although it is very useful for comparison between ammunitions in lieu of the optionally public executions of child abusers and sex offenders that many of us would prefer.

    My question now, is how does this correlate with ammunition that requires yaw for terminal effect? MK262 in gel typically comes apart at the 5" mark, although it begins to lose attitude at the 4" mark. Jihadists, according to a power-point authored (co-authored?) by Md Roberts, are 7" thick viewed frontally.

    How does a consistent performer in gel perform in the real world? Is penetration before yaw in gel what is seen in real OIS/MIL/Hunting experience, or, like total penetration, is it typically a much shorter (or longer, conversely?) "neck" before loss of stability and fragmentation?

  2. #2
    Ive been in a firearms instructor class all week. We reviewed this case today and maybe it will answer some questions in regards to bullets performing on the street as they do in ballistic gel testing.

    ***If you have a weak stomach do not click on the link.***

    http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachment...FBIAcademy.pdf

    ETA (and someone correct me I am wrong): 4 of the 5 the .40 S&W Gold Dot 180 grain bullets that made contact with this suspect performed as they do in ballistic gelatin w/ 4LD. The 223 rounds (all Hornady TAP of either a 55 grain or 75 grain version) did not.
    Last edited by KeeFus; 01-30-2015 at 10:11 PM.

  3. #3
    Member Luke's Avatar
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    That is insane. If that's not enough to make you carry a spare mag idk what is!

  4. #4
    Thanks for sharing that link. It certainly will make you rethink your edc setup.
    "Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    4 of the 5 the .40 S&W Gold Dot 180 grain bullets that made contact with this suspect performed as they do in ballistic gelatin w/ 4LD. The 223 rounds (all Hornady TAP of either a 55 grain or 75 grain version) did not.
    Actually, it was 5 of 6 Gold Dots performed to spec. Its been a long week.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    Ive been in a firearms instructor class all week. We reviewed this case today and maybe it will answer some questions in regards to bullets performing on the street as they do in ballistic gel testing.

    ***If you have a weak stomach do not click on the link.***

    http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachment...FBIAcademy.pdf

    ETA (and someone correct me I am wrong): 4 of the 5 the .40 S&W Gold Dot 180 grain bullets that made contact with this suspect performed as they do in ballistic gelatin w/ 4LD. The 223 rounds (all Hornady TAP of either a 55 grain or 75 grain version) did not.
    The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition,
    although consistent with manufacturer’s claims,
    did not perform terminally as this Police
    Department expected
    So...what did it actually do, aside from the foot? I see what it was CLAIMED that they did, but it is very nebulous. I saw some wounds which looked like they would have been superficial even if made by a .300WM, due to their location and tracking.

  7. #7
    We were told that the 223/5.56 rounds did not expand as advertised by the manufacturer. They simply went thru. Obviously one crushed the right side pelvis, which made him immobile but the determined 18 kept fighting until the officer flanked him and put a .40 in his head.

  8. #8
    New Member BLR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
    When it comes to expansion, gel seems to mirror the real world pretty well unless bones or some other structure are impacted. However, I have noticed that penetration from gel tests does not necessarily carry over to real-world, such is the case with the 124gr 9mm Gold Dot, which regularly penetrates well over 12" in gel.
    Your journey of terminal ballistics starts here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid

  9. #9
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Actually what you heard was wrong.

    In the case noted, a source of a lot of internets bullshit, the issue with the Hornady ammo was high fragmentation and under penetration.
    Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 01-31-2015 at 12:11 PM.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
    www.agiletactical.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    Actually what you heard was worng.

    In the case noted, a source of a lot of internets bullshit, the issue with the Hornady ammo was high fragmentation and under penetration.
    What happened to them? Did they strike barriers or extended extremities first? Otherwise, I fail to see how they could fail to significantly penetrate on the target described. He looked relatively "normal" medically.

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