Reasons for various weights and pressures for a given caliber

[351322]

Using 9mm as an example, I have always used 115gr for practice, training, etc. But for defensive use I have always used a heavier weight bullet, 147gr. But I have never really thought about reasons for why ammo comes in a variety of weights and pressures, especially when it comes to defensive ammo. For instance, if I recall correctly, DocGKR has mentioned in other threads that Remington Golden Sabers in 115gr and 124gr did not perform as well as the 147gr. If that is the case and lets say Remington knows this, why continue to offer the other weights? Are the reasons, for offering various weights and pressures, are for penetration, accuracy, barrel lengths, barriers, etc? Or is it also because some consumers want a larger variety of ammo so the manufactures just make it? Another example, why would one police dept use a 124gr +p, while another may just use a 147gr?

I think I have articulated what I am trying to ask, but I don't know what I don't know, and I am not sure what to research. Are there any books or other resources that I can look at to get a better understanding of this?

[Chuck Haggard]

What you are asking about has nothing to do with ballistics and everything to do with the human condition.

Example; Hydrashocks. The basic design of the Hydrashock isn't any better than any other old school cup-and-core JHP, and actually performs worse than some, yet Federal hasn't pulled the Hydrashock off of the market because it sells. It shouldn't because it's a crappy bullet that has been surpassed in technology for decades, but people buy it anyway.

The original 9mm was a 123-124gr loading in the 1200+fps range, since then everyone has taken to doing what people always do, try to make things better/smoother/faster.

In JHPs the 147gr 9mm loadings allow the bullet to expand well and still have enough weight and length to drive the bullet deeply enough to be effective.

[Unobtanium]

I personally have found 147gr T-series to be the most controllable 9mm round I've fired. The 124gr +P stuff tends to do best on car doors, etc. in my own personal testing. That said...

Why is there not just the F150?
Why is there not just the Mustang GT?
Why is there not just the Corvette?
Why is there not just the Rolls Royce?

Well...because people like variety, companies like profit, and then we couldn't argue about Gold Dot vs. HST or Mustang vs. Camaro. We are a species that thrives on competition and conflict...just like EVERY OTHER SPECIES ON THE PLANET. However, having dominated all other species in our biosphere, we now focus on each other, sadly.

[Rich]

I personally have found 147gr T-series to be the most controllable 9mm round I've fired. The 124gr +P stuff tends to do best on car doors, etc. in my own personal testing. That said...

Why is there not just the F150?
Why is there not just the Mustang GT?
Why is there not just the Corvette?
Why is there not just the Rolls Royce?

Well...because people like variety, companies like profit, and then we couldn't argue about Gold Dot vs. HST or Mustang vs. Camaro. We are a species that thrives on competition and conflict...just like EVERY OTHER SPECIES ON THE PLANET. However, having dominated all other species in our biosphere, we now focus on each other, sadly.

Controllable

For me that would be almost 115gr standard pressure load . To bad none make the list or I would use it.

I find the impulse of the 124gr standard pressure and a few 124gr +P loads more controllable than 147gr loads in my P30S. But that's just me.

r.

[Rich]

What you are asking about has nothing to do with ballistics and everything to do with the human condition.

Example; Hydrashocks. The basic design of the Hydrashock isn't any better than any other old school cup-and-core JHP, and actually performs worse than some, yet Federal hasn't pulled the Hydrashock off of the market because it sells. It shouldn't because it's a crappy bullet that has been surpassed in technology for decades, but people buy it anyway.

The original 9mm was a 123-124gr loading in the 1200+fps range, since then everyone has taken to doing what people always do, try to make things better/smoother/faster.

In JHPs the 147gr 9mm loadings allow the bullet to expand well and still have enough weight and length to drive the bullet deeply enough to be effective.

Chuck what weight do you prefer in 9mm?

Funny thing is that I prefer heavy loads in my handguns. 38/357, 40S&W , 45ACP.

But for the 9mm I always preferred the 115-124gr +P loads over the 147gr.

I like the slide velocity of the +P loads and believe they may help aid in reliability .
I also like the higher velocity for expansion .
Call me crazy But if the 147gr loading is off a grain or so it might not expand but the +P if its off a grain or so it might have a better chance in expanding
Love to see some testing

[Chuck Haggard]

Depends.

I am a huge fan of the 124gr +P Gold Dot for defensive use. I also like the 124gr +P and 147gr Ranger-T, and most of the rest of the "list" in those weights.

115s sure are nice for low recoil volume work, like going to a class where you are burning 1000-1500 rounds in a weekend.

Overall, if the world was left with no 9mm outside of 124gr ball and 124gr +P JHPs I'd be pretty happy about how that worked out.

[okie john]

Using 9mm as an example, I have always used 115gr for practice, training, etc. But for defensive use I have always used a heavier weight bullet, 147gr. But I have never really thought about reasons for why ammo comes in a variety of weights and pressures, especially when it comes to defensive ammo. For instance, if I recall correctly, DocGKR has mentioned in other threads that Remington Golden Sabers in 115gr and 124gr did not perform as well as the 147gr. If that is the case and lets say Remington knows this, why continue to offer the other weights? Are the reasons, for offering various weights and pressures, are for penetration, accuracy, barrel lengths, barriers, etc? Or is it also because some consumers want a larger variety of ammo so the manufactures just make it? Another example, why would one police dept use a 124gr +p, while another may just use a 147gr?

Very few private users know anything about terminal ballistics. When they buy a gun, they buy a box of 20 JHPs based on ad campaigns, the appearance of the loaded ammo, and/or the wisdom of gun shop commandos. They never test fire the combination, yet they consider themselves ready.

The few private users who actually do test ammo tend to use informal tests that show some loads working better than others—Load A may feed more reliably or be more accurate or run a little faster over the chronograph than Load B—in the guns they own. These folks are often the ones who tell the first group what to buy.

For LE agencies, I suspect that it has more to do with the preferences of the handful of people who choose the department’s load. These people may choose to avail themselves of DocGKR-level data, or they may fall into one of the categories mentioned above.

I think I have articulated what I am trying to ask, but I don't know what I don't know, and I am not sure what to research. Are there any books or other resources that I can look at to get a better understanding of this?

Based on my years working in gun shops, I’d say that the fact that you’re even asking this question puts you into a very small percentage of shooters. Not everyone has access to DocGKR-level data. Others find that it challenges their long-held prejudices, so they don’t want it, or they hold their ears and run away screaming when confronted with it. This forum is one of the most reliable sources in the world for real-world information from people who actually know what they're talking about.


Okie John

[Rich]

Using 9mm as an example, I have always used 115gr for practice, training, etc. But for defensive use I have always used a heavier weight bullet, 147gr. But I have never really thought about reasons for why ammo comes in a variety of weights and pressures, especially when it comes to defensive ammo. For instance, if I recall correctly, DocGKR has mentioned in other threads that Remington Golden Sabers in 115gr and 124gr did not perform as well as the 147gr. If that is the case and lets say Remington knows this, why continue to offer the other weights? Are the reasons, for offering various weights and pressures, are for penetration, accuracy, barrel lengths, barriers, etc? Or is it also because some consumers want a larger variety of ammo so the manufactures just make it? Another example, why would one police dept use a 124gr +p, while another may just use a 147gr?

I think I have articulated what I am trying to ask, but I don't know what I don't know, and I am not sure what to research. Are there any books or other resources that I can look at to get a better understanding of this?

Speaking of Golden Saber

The Rem GS 124gr +P Bonded gave excellent performance when compared to 147 HST /124gr +P HST in Docs test.

I also saw 2 4layer Gel test.
Pistol used was a sub compact with 2.7 inch barrel
And the 124gr Bonded Golden Saber rounds expanded

I also bet the 147 GS Bonded will pass Docs test.

[DocGKR]

I will take any bullet that works, but generally find the 147 gr perform very well in actual shooting incidents and are often quite accurate and easy to shoot--certainly compared to 9 mm NATO ball.

[Jeep]

I like the "Mall Ninja Dentist" thing! It's a catchy slogan.