Update from IDPA Headquarters, CCP Division Wins

[GRV]

The internet has told me a number of times that most/many people shooting IDPA aren't carrying a G19 either - instead, an LCP, j-frame, something similar, or nothing. Not that I know what the truth is with regard to IDPA match participants. When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

I think the actual carry setup of folks, and the extent to which that is different from their IDPA gear, may depend on the region. In some regions, I could see that the full-size gun, vest, and hip holster thing is pretty solid. However, there are other regions where a gust of wind is enough to turn that setup into a revoked license, and talking about shooting is bound to get you dirty looks from 90% of the people you run into day-to-day. It's these latter regions that I'm more familiar with, which may partially explain why my experience is more in line with what you're getting at here.

Separately, I found the IDPA HQ email pretty sincere and insightful. I found this part interesting:

But after having some DM and MA level shooters shoot the Classifier with an SSP firearm and again with a CCP sized firearm, that helped to change our minds. It was discovered that the CCP Classifier times ranged from 7% to 24% slower than SSP times with the same shooter on the same day. This is a bigger difference than SSP to CDP firearms and is roughly on par with the SSP to Revolver difference in Classifier times. The compact firearms are harder to shoot quickly and accurately than some originally thought. This is probably why they are rarely represented in sanctioned matches, up to now.

If by "CCP sized firearm" they mean ~G19 and "SSP firearm" they mean G34, that's a much bigger gap than I was expecting. In which case, I think CCP will be a quite useful class with regards to the data it produces, both in times and in watching highly-skilled shooters work.

[jlw]

Yeah, and IDPA calls a 3" L-frame a BUG-R...

---

I was told back in the days when duty gear could be run at a sanctioned match that cops couldn't compete with G34/G35s in duty gear because they weren't approved duty pistols. I responded that the Kentucky State Police, the Alabama DNR, and named several other agencies would be shocked to learn that their issued gun was an approved duty pistol. Note, I was not sporting a G34 in duty gear at the time.

[Talionis]

The internet has told me a number of times that most/many people shooting IDPA aren't carrying a G19 either - instead, an LCP, j-frame, something similar, or nothing. Not that I know what the truth is with regard to IDPA match participants. When you were shooting IDPA, did you think everyone/most/many carried a G19 or another similarly sized handgun?

I'll give you a very local perspective. I shoot USPSA and IDPA on a nearly weekly basis in the Boise, ID area. In this area, the majority of competitive shooters in both disciplines carry daily. I find that the more serious they are as a shooter, the more of a "real" gun they tend to carry; to whit, two of the most popular types of carry guns among the local hotshots are G17's and 1911 commander or full size guns. Only a few of the upper tier shooters either carry a pocket gun or nothing.

It is interesting to note that there is a trend towards smaller carry guns as one moves down the score sheet, with Shields and LCPs being the order of the day for those without much time or interest to train to get better. I have to admit to some selection bias in this report, since the people I am most familiar with in both IDPA and USPSA locally are mostly the same core guys, and they are mostly serious and skilled shooters.

[Edwin]

What people actually carry is probably whatever is cheapest.

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/top-...arry-handguns/
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/chea...ing-guns-2014/
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/top-...-shooters-log/

[Mr_White]

so, then, according to the internet the poll-takers are liars?

while I realize that IDPA is the new whipping boy of "serious shooters", my experience at the local club and at various sanctioned matches over the last decade, has been at the very least that the G19 is the gun that the particpants *want* to carry, even if they don't carry every day, and that the number of IDPA shooters that carry ANYTHING is exponentially greater than the number of USPSA shooters that carry, as 'round here the USPSA is treated much like golf, and the guns considered like clubs.

I suspect, however, that it's like most things, and people see/hear/conclude what they want based on the preconceptions they arrive with.

Bold added by me.

Lol, Rob, that is not what I am saying, and the 'internet telling me' refers to many comments I've seen on multiple forums over the course of years to the effect that although IDPA is supposed to be about 'competing as you carry', competitors are frequently reported to be observed to arrive and depart the match with a gun radically different from the one they shoot in IDPA competition or no gun at all. I've seen the comment enough that hearing the report that the G19 is the most popular gun carried by IDPA competitors who attended nationals made me wonder about it. Actually, now that I consider the sentence that Todd posted more carefully, it's worded in a way that would make it technically correct if one person said they carry a G19 and all other survey respondents said they don't carry a gun at all, so maybe I shouldn't find it as surprising a claim as I did at first.

Anyway, I have never been to an IDPA match, which is why I asked someone with actual IDPA experience what they had personally seen.

I would assume that you are correct about USPSA shooters being 'worse' in this regard. Of course 'worse' is a loaded word that attaches righteousness to the priorities that I happen to have and that many other people do not share (which is none of my business.)

[Mr_White]

I'll give you a very local perspective. I shoot USPSA and IDPA on a nearly weekly basis in the Boise, ID area. In this area, the majority of competitive shooters in both disciplines carry daily.

Thank you!

I find that the more serious they are as a shooter, the more of a "real" gun they tend to carry; to whit, two of the most popular types of carry guns among the local hotshots are G17's and 1911 commander or full size guns. Only a few of the upper tier shooters either carry a pocket gun or nothing.

It is interesting to note that there is a trend towards smaller carry guns as one moves down the score sheet, with Shields and LCPs being the order of the day for those without much time or interest to train to get better. I have to admit to some selection bias in this report, since the people I am most familiar with in both IDPA and USPSA locally are mostly the same core guys, and they are mostly serious and skilled shooters.

Now THAT is a really interesting observation. I wonder if that boils down to one of the original functions of action pistol competition - to discover which equipment and techniques worked 'best'? Maybe those better shooters you are talking about don't want to lose their shooting capability outside the match to carrying a j-frame.

[freeidaho]

The Tactical Journal has the survey. http://www.idpa.com/content/tactical...al/14V18I4.pdf Page 32 is of interest.

[Clusterfrack]

...I've seen the comment enough that hearing the report that the G19 is the most popular gun carried by IDPA competitors who attended nationals made me wonder about it. ...

Our local match director carries a G19, and got a match bump to SSP Master at the WA state championship using the same G19. For some reason he's decided to shoot CDP with a 1911 that has lots of problems so I've been taking home some match wins instead of 2nd place :-)

[Talionis]

Now THAT is a really interesting observation. I wonder if that boils down to one of the original functions of action pistol competition - to discover which equipment and techniques worked 'best'? Maybe those better shooters you are talking about don't want to lose their shooting capability outside the match to carrying a j-frame.

Yes, I do think what some of the local heroes carry does tie into the roots of action pistol sports in terms of discovering capabilities with different technique and gear. One M class shooter carries his spare SVI limited gun as his carry gun, he's not willing to make any compromise from his full match level performance. Many of us started competition with sub-optimal guns, and eventually realized that we really did shoot full frame guns with a longer sight radius better at a given skill level. Most of the local shooters that have a drive to win in competition also have a drive to win in most things, including the admittedly unlikely event of a self-defense shooting. To a certain degree, that means selecting equipment that doesn't impose too severe a handicap. I found that I can shoot a "compact" gun such as a G19 and similar sized guns within 90% or higher of a full frame competition gun, and chose that as my primary carry gun. The same can be said for a number of other guys I know that carry things like CZ P01's and 1911 commanders. Interestingly, most of those guns happen to fit nicely in the CCP division.

[ToddG]

The same can be said for a number of other guys I know that carry things like CZ P01's and 1911 commanders. Interestingly, most of those guns happen to fit nicely in the CCP division.

Actually no, a true 4.25" Commander does not meet the CCP requirements, only a 4" compact does. But if they allowed 4.25" Commanders they'd be stuck with full size (4.25") M&Ps... and so on and so on. Setting an arbitrary barrel length limit is always going to involve trade-offs and leave some people out in the cold.