.gov loses lawsuit ref M855a1 bullet

[Unobtanium]

Note that 75 gr OTM offers almost identical terminal performance in unobstructed shots as Mk262.

We have extensive experience here with the Hornady 75 gr OTM in OIS incidents. For over 15 years 75 gr OTM worked very well at quickly stopping dangerous violent criminals on unobstructed shots. Unfortunately, there were several failures to immediately incapacitate hostile opponents when shots first had to go through intermediate barriers. Several SWAT teams in the area carried both the 75 gr OTM for open shots and the 62 gr TBBC for barrier shots. Like the 75 gr OTM, the 62 gr TBBC also resulted in rapid incapacitation of assaulting criminals during a number of OIS incidents, with the added benefit of working equally well irregardless of any intervening barriers.

When assessing the data, it was discovered that both rounds penetrate in the same ideal 12-18" range, but the TBBC was barrier blind. So the question was asked--why carry two loads when one load will do it all? As a result, most agencies here have migrated away from fragmenting OTM or PT designs to bonded barrier blind loads like the 62 gr TBBC, 64 gr Win bonded, 62/64 gr Gold Dot.

For hunting, well placed shots with the 75/77 gr OTM will definitely work on deer, however they will leave fragments in the meat--potentially leading to painful and expensive odontogenic injuries. As a result, using a non-fragmenting design such as a bonded bullet or a monolithic bullet like the all copper Barnes TSX or Hornady GMX is probably a smarter move when hunting game intended to be ingested.

Of course none of the above digression has anything to do with the merits of M855A1. Like M855, M855A1 is fine as a load for LMG's, but I see no benefit to M855A1 over Mk318 or 70 gr Brown Tip for use in military rifles and carbines--especially given the significant problems associated with M855A1.

Makes infinite sense. Have you seen issues with feed-ramps leading using the TBBC, or the Winchester/Nosler 64gr bonded load, or was that issue addressed/looked at for the FBI contract? I recall you saying it was an issue at one point with all the soft-point ammo of the day.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Soldiers I have spoken with love m855a1. In fact, I've never read or heard of anyone who shot someone with it who didn't have good things to say, from personal conversation, to military press releases.
Yes, this is vague. It's the best I can do since I won't attach names nor can I verify claims made by these soldiers. I wasn't there.

Dr. Roberts says m855 and a1 look the same at 600m on flesh. I understood it that it does fragment out to this distance. If you have conducted testing with it at extrapolated velocity that shows otherwise, Dr Roberts, I'll have to go with you on that. I do know the independent gel tests I saw with m855 a1 looked absolutely wicked, but we're much closer than 600m.

I have heard two stories on wear. Both from people I trust. I think test protocols are what differ here. Some schedules of fire may show more wear than others?

I am interested in your last, Dr Roberts. Last I heard, x135 was a hot choice.

I'm on the outside looking in, and clearly reserve the right to be wrong! It's just very curious and I don't understand why this is such a divided topic with such conflicting information.

Dr Roberts, you state that at this time, mk318 production and issue is not being phased down or out by m855a1 at all in the USMC?

*I may step on my dick, but only through repeated humiliating failures can some of us learn

I wanted to jump in here real fast and provide a very limited first hand experiences I had with M855A1 while deployed to Afghanistan and the Arghandab River Valley, and I am NOT one of the Soldiers that "loved" the ammo..with the M855A1..it did appear more accurate for most rifleman and have less of a need for very high hold over. We did have some sniper PLT guys shooting the stuff out to 1000yrds and it did maintain a more than respectable amount of accuracy.

We didn't have to shoot thru many barriers a few mud huts for the most part and some auto glass on a rare occasion or two, mud huts and walls, nope still needed something much bigger think 40MM HEDP, glass I dont know I mean something hit the mark, maybe the CU slug, and I'd expect its performance would have been on par with a slightly smaller/lighter TSX failing thru glass/steel..But the round did put bad guys down harder then my experiences with M855, in unobstructed shots..but I do consider the more predictable/consistent terminal perforce a source of this and about the only real pro of this round. Shot placement still reigns supreme, we had a guy take 7 hits (M855A1) and a few were actually well placed before he called it enough. Out longest range hit on a target was 535yrds (489.2m) confirmed from a M4.. The round did NOT fragment, the entire and in almost re-loadable condition projectile was recovered near by after completely passing thru front clavicle and out the back. The bullet did yaw at least IMO due to the larger than .22 hole and what did appear somewhat oblong to me. The bullet hit a mud structure directly after the target about 2yrds after pass-thru and was laying on the ground. Unfragmented or deformed in anyway besides rifle groves.

My Command also got us large amounts Mk262 and our XO even tried to source us Mk318 which I would have much preferred! DocGKR really sums up the info well on the cons (and Pros) of this round..and speaking of Soldiers who love it..I suspect many love it because it was "new" and they were told how "good" it was...or they misread good shot placement and think magic bullet that only M855A1 could have accomplished and a greentip in the same spot wouldnt have. BTW DocGKR your posts helped ME get our Company command to look at something besides the EPR, mk262 was fairly available we never got our hands on Mk318 and the EPR would could get anytime we wanted...also a fast note on the USMC and using the Mk318, I have no idea what the MC plans on doing with the Mk318 or its future and no source I have within the MC does either.. But I can tell you that a friends Bn that recently (within the last four months) deployed to Afghanistan and IS being issued Mk318 as a standard.

...and one more note: Never in my time in the Army while deployed and using the round was I ever told by anyone that a key performance feature of the round was fragmentation at 600m. If fact in my personal experience of ONE recovered projectile I was not surprised at all that it did not frag. I was simply more surprised that a bullet was found at all and it was not a disappointment in the results I guess as I wasnt expecting anything else. Only in recent months long after my ETS have I heard this frag at 600m thing..which did seem plausible IMO..but not in my experience.

[Unobtanium]

I wanted to jump in here real fast and provide a very limited first hand experiences I had with M855A1 while deployed to Afghanistan and the Arghandab River Valley, and I am NOT one of the Soldiers that "loved" the ammo..with the M855A1..it did appear more accurate for most rifleman and have less of a need for very high hold over. We did have some sniper PLT guys shooting the stuff out to 1000yrds and it did maintain a more than respectable amount of accuracy.

We didn't have to shoot thru many barriers a few mud huts for the most part and some auto glass on a rare occasion or two, mud huts and walls, nope still needed something much bigger think 40MM HEDP, glass I dont know I mean something hit the mark, maybe the CU slug, and I'd expect its performance would have been on par with a slightly smaller/lighter TSX failing thru glass/steel..But the round did put bad guys down harder then my experiences with M855, in unobstructed shots..but I do consider the more predictable/consistent terminal perforce a source of this and about the only real pro of this round. Shot placement still reigns supreme, we had a guy take 7 hits (M855A1) and a few were actually well placed before he called it enough. Out longest range hit on a target was 535yrds confirmed from a M4.. The round did NOT fragment, the entire and in almost re-loadable condition projectile was recovered near by after completely passing thru front clavicle and out the back. The bullet did yaw at least IMO due to the larger than .22 hole and what did appear somewhat oblong to me. The bullet hit a mud structure directly after the target about 2yrds after pass-thru and was laying on the ground. Unfragmented or deformed in anyway besides rifle groves.

My Command also got us large amounts Mk262 and our XO even tried to source us Mk318 which I would have much preferred! DocGKR really sums up the info well on the cons (and Pros) of this round..and speaking of Soldiers who love it..I suspect many love it because it was "new" and they were told how "good" it was...or they misread good shot placement and think magic bullet that only M855A1 could have accomplished and a greentip in the same spot wouldnt have. BTW DocGKR your posts helped ME get our Company command to look at something besides the EPR, mk262 was fairly available we never got our hands on Mk318 and the EPR would could get anytime we wanted...also a fast note on the USMC and using the Mk318, I have no idea what the MC plans on doing with the Mk318 or its future and no source I have within the MC does either.. But I can tell you that a friends Bn that recently (within the last four months) deployed to Afghanistan and IS being issued Mk318 as a standard.

Greatly appreciated input! Thank-you! How did MK262 do, compared to M855A1/M855? How far out did you see it used? Did it frag? What was the furthest it fragged? I'm curious about your experiences with it, as well.

I know everyone says M193 won't do well with barriers, but I've seen it go through the trunk of a vehicle, through the back sets, driver seat, and imbed in the dash. I don't know what size that frag was, but I know P for Plenty will ruin a day, typically. I've also seen .44 magnum 270gr GDSP's stopped by a single car door. Cars are so unpredictable. So, I'm curious how the MK262 does, even though it "should do poorly".

As to mud huts, never shot one, but I have shot cinderblocks. The best round I have used on cinderblocks was X135 Browntip. It stayed whole, but it just had zip when it came out the other side. It DENTED a phone book on numerous shots. Just not enough mass/KE with the 5.56, IMO, for barriers like that.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Greatly appreciated input! Thank-you! How did MK262 do, compared to M855A1/M855? How far out did you see it used? Did it frag? What was the furthest it fragged? I'm curious about your experiences with it, as well.

I know everyone says M193 won't do well with barriers, but I've seen it go through the trunk of a vehicle, through the back sets, driver seat, and imbed in the dash. I don't know what size that frag was, but I know P for Plenty will ruin a day, typically. I've also seen .44 magnum 270gr GDSP's stopped by a single car door. Cars are so unpredictable. So, I'm curious how the MK262 does, even though it "should do poorly".

As to mud huts, never shot one, but I have shot cinderblocks. The best round I have used on cinderblocks was X135 Browntip. It stayed whole, but it just had zip when it came out the other side. It DENTED a phone book on numerous shots. Just not enough mass/KE with the 5.56, IMO, for barriers like that.

Honestly while Mk262 at times filled more magazines than M855A1 did, we didnt actually shoot that many bad-guys with it (and honestly none that I can remember, sorry - outside of DMs/Sniper PLT and more often than not they were shooting that new 300win mag) and most 556 kills (mind you we murdered some tailban, but it certainly wasnt Rambo as much as I wish it was so I'm talking a fairly small sample size) fell to the M855A1 or M995 (our M249s were almost exclusively loaded with AP, despite what I often hear as being among the rarest thing for regular line Infantry to be issued, it wasnt) with almost every single contact/kill etc it was all well within 200ish meters, due to the terrain of the ARV (think Vietnam Jungle lol, contact often looked like this..us on one end of a 100 sq yd orchard and them on the other behind walls..and pass that you couldnt see into the next orchard or contact in some short narrow defile between canals) with the exception of maybe three IIRC and only once exceeding 400m..everything else was very close considering normal taliban SOP or stereotype. As much as I love barrier blind designs and the 556 overall and as much as I'd prefer a 70gr TSX, 62gr TBBC, Mk318 etc.. I dont think the effects would have been much different on the mud walls we were dealing with, and I wouldnt expect any 223/556 to be realistically so..certainly my time in Iraq or the uber rare man-made barriers in our AO in Afghanistan if would have been much better!

[Sixgun_Symphony]

Also I guess I should mention stress on wpns as far as feed ramp wear I cant really comment on that as I don't think we ever shot enough to see anything noticeable (besides the slightest little residue that appeared almost lead like) ..I believe about the most I've ever shot was in a train up at KAF and it was maybe 160rnds (re-zero and some CQB drills). Almost all my time was spent behind the M240L on that deployment. But the "spinning" tip always made me a little extra nervous if I wasn't already enough firing a near proof load. We did have a bolt break off two locking lugs, and as much as I'd like to blame it on the EPR round I shouldn't say it was as this was a very well worn M4 with who knows how many rounds on the BGC beforehand.

Recoil was without a doubt noticeably more than M855, their was no fooling me as to what was in my magazines and that something much hotter was going down the barrel. But to the point of diminished rapid fallow up shots I would say no to that. I still felt that it was within the 5.56 recoil "spectrum" and nothing out of the ordinary for anyone familiar with 556/223 from that standpoint, but it was noticeable.

some more on terminal ballistics, all shots had exited the targets (from a lot of different conceivable shot angles). I don't know if it matters but I've seen much larger exit wounds on deer using the 64gr Speer GD and of course other premium SPs.

I had no faith in the round after a barrier, after seeing it go thru auto glass. I'd like to use the word pathetic but I dont think it was that bad. but certainly not in the same league as an FBI defined barrier blind design and from what I've seen the Mk318 is much closer to that definition then the EPR round. But in an open air shot I think it was an improvement and performed better than what it replaced. And the glass incident was the only time the round did not exit the target.

[Unobtanium]

Ty! Non biased end user feedback is priceless.

[Unobtanium]

After looking further at MK262, I think it's a pretty piss poor performer for home defense. Where I'm moving in a few weeks, it gets pretty cold. 0*F in the winter. This means that heavy clothing could certainly be worn. According to FBI protocol testing, the 77gr SMK won't go much past 7" in bare gel in heavy clothing tests. That's GEL. As has been stated, sternum and skin and whatnot is even more of a barrier than homogenous blocks of gel. The MK262 I bought (only a few boxes to try out) looks like it's "paper only" for me!
http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/l...omparison.aspx

Select their 77gr loading. It's not a 5.56 pressure loading, but it impacts at 24XX. About what 262 would impact at across the room from a 10.5" gun. If anything, the lower velocity helped it get that whopping 7" of penetration (I know...I know...word choice...)

[Odin Bravo One]

(And therein lies the problem with A) Marketing B) Internet & Gun owners C) Gel versus flesh & blood.

Mk262 was not asked for, developed, or refined for improved terminal ballistics. Right tool/Right appication type thing. But when it hit the streets that it was in use with the cool kid club..........the manufacturer, who is in business to make money, capitalized on it. Then the internet and bullshit glossy picture magazines fawned over it, and chiming in with their own personal experiences with it..........at the range, against Gel, wet newspapers, water jugs, and everything in between.

As for C)........a lot of people have been shot with 262 over the past 10 years. A lot of people walking wounded who should have been dead as fried chicken. And alot not walking. Or breathing. At distances well beyond what the ballistics say should be possible.

The recurring theme in cases I am aware of, at least in calibers 762 and below,........not what you hit them with. Where you hit them.

Anyone can feel free to quote me on that. I am pretty sure I am the first to come to this profound conclusion.

(Sarcasm is free of charge tonight. Normally I charge extra for the amount extra effort it takes me.)

[Unobtanium]

(And therein lies the problem with A) Marketing B) Internet & Gun owners C) Gel versus flesh & blood.

Mk262 was not asked for, developed, or refined for improved terminal ballistics. Right tool/Right appication type thing. But when it hit the streets that it was in use with the cool kid club..........the manufacturer, who is in business to make money, capitalized on it. Then the internet and bullshit glossy picture magazines fawned over it, and chiming in with their own personal experiences with it..........at the range, against Gel, wet newspapers, water jugs, and everything in between.

As for C)........a lot of people have been shot with 262 over the past 10 years. A lot of people walking wounded who should have been dead as fried chicken. And alot not walking. Or breathing. At distances well beyond what the ballistics say should be possible.

The recurring theme in cases I am aware of, at least in calibers 762 and below,........not what you hit them with. Where you hit them.

Anyone can feel free to quote me on that. I am pretty sure I am the first to come to this profound conclusion.

(Sarcasm is free of charge tonight. Normally I charge extra for the amount extra effort it takes me.)

Obviously you bring a working knowledge to the table, while I do not, but seriously? 7" of penetration in FBI "heavy clothing" tests? I'm still a bit confused that it penetrates more after hitting a sheet of ply-board. I know gel isn't people, but heavy clothing is a legit concern for me up in NWA. Hell. It makes me wonder if a coyote pelt is equivalent to heavy clothing.

[DocGKR]

SeanM, well said!