.gov loses lawsuit ref M855a1 bullet

[Odin Bravo One]

The issue with the a1 round is that it's basically 5.56 +P, and carbine systems are already over-gassed.

I have friends who have shot numerous people with .38LSWC, green tip, and 9mm NATO ball, none of them were unhappy with their ammo either. Single person/incident anecdotes aren't always the best way to measure something, especially since so much observation during a fight is prone to memory issues after the fact.

I too have heard of a couple of people who have had occasion to use GT and 124 NATO...........only one complaint, which was from a dude center punched three times inside 60 yards who lived a long, long time after despite not being given emergency care due to continued engagements. We would learn later that two of the three rounds sent multiple fragments into homeboy's ticker. ER & cardiac surgeons both stated they had no explanation for why he had not expired within seconds of being shot, and his heart was not functioning properly, and should have shut down, given the extensive damage. Neither expected him to make it through the night.

He was released from the hospital about 2 months later, and last I knew, was still alive and kicking. In a savage country's prison system.

Everyone else I have heard of were plenty impressed enough with NATO spec ammo.

[Odin Bravo One]

My conclusion, informally, was that from a 14.5" barrel, flesh would perform about the same as the water-filled milk-jug at disrupting the MK318 Projectile at 315 yards, but, that is just a guess on my part. If accurate, I'd say I'm impressed. Should I say I'm impressed?

The issue is water jugs do not do a very good job of replicating human tissue.

The issue I have always had regarding these types of tests, including calibrated ballistic gelatin, is that it doesn't factor in variables such as bones, ricochet's, etc. The biggest anotomical feature they fail to factor in is the brain.

People can do some amazing shit even after having been drilled with solid hits, and the rounds performed exactly as advertised.

If we spent half as much time out shooting, and improving our ability to hit vital zones, and prepare mentally for the dangerous and scary aspect of trading rounds, as we do looking for a magic bullet, we would find the bullet itself, and it's performance are the deciding factor in so few situations, any further search for the Holy Grail bullet seems silly.

It does to me anyway.

[Unobtanium]

The issue is water jugs do not do a very good job of replicating human tissue.

The issue I have always had regarding these types of tests, including calibrated ballistic gelatin, is that it doesn't factor in variables such as bones, ricochet's, etc. The biggest anotomical feature they fail to factor in is the brain.

People can do some amazing shit even after having been drilled with solid hits, and the rounds performed exactly as advertised.

If we spent half as much time out shooting, and improving our ability to hit vital zones, and prepare mentally for the dangerous and scary aspect of trading rounds, as we do looking for a magic bullet, we would find the bullet itself, and it's performance are the deciding factor in so few situations, any further search for the Holy Grail bullet seems silly.

It does to me anyway.

Understood.

[DocGKR]

"If we spent half as much time out shooting, and improving our ability to hit vital zones, and prepare mentally for the dangerous and scary aspect of trading rounds, as we do looking for a magic bullet, we would find the bullet itself, and it's performance are the deciding factor in so few situations, any further search for the Holy Grail bullet seems silly. "

This.

[Odin Bravo One]

Understood.

Don't take it the wrong way.........I totally understand the quest for knowledge, understanding, and the desire to outfit ourselves with the absolute best equipment we can afford. I myself don't have cheap, shit built guns. My wife will NEVER run her gun hard enough to make a Rock River choke, let alone her Tier One custom built rifle.....but I like knowing she has one built to be a beast........just in case.

And while I know 55 ball will do it if I do it. But I still lean on TAP, or 70 grain brown tip, all copper projos, etc. when loading up for "uh oh".

But we tend to become counter-productive.....spending so much time looking for a tree, we fail to see the forest.

[DocGKR]

Unobtanium--Big Army has NOT been fully truthful or forthcoming with accurate information on M855A1 with the public, our allies, and even within the U.S. military. Just look at the initial topic of this thread and read through the actual court document to get a glimmer of the ego and stupidity involved with this project...

[Unobtanium]

Unobtanium--Big Army has NOT been fully truthful or forthcoming with accurate information on M855A1 with the public, our allies, and even within the U.S. military. Just look at the initial topic of this thread and read through the actual court document to get a glimmer of the ego and stupidity involved with this project...

Fair enough. I can't argue that! But...why? What's to gain? It's not like it's some golden boy's brainchild. Hell, it's stolen.

[Unobtanium]

Don't take it the wrong way.........I totally understand the quest for knowledge, understanding, and the desire to outfit ourselves with the absolute best equipment we can afford. I myself don't have cheap, shit built guns. My wife will NEVER run her gun hard enough to make a Rock River choke, let alone her Tier One custom built rifle.....but I like knowing she has one built to be a beast........just in case.

And while I know 55 ball will do it if I do it. But I still lean on TAP, or 70 grain brown tip, all copper projos, etc. when loading up for "uh oh".

But we tend to become counter-productive.....spending so much time looking for a tree, we fail to see the forest.

No, I get it. I took no offense at all to your response, and took it in the spirit offered. Like I said, I freely advertise that my dick gets underfoot and I have room to learn. So I ask. I relay what I've heard for criticism and revision. You and "The Dentist" are two different people with two different perspectives. I enjoy and benefit from both, and others. I did not enter thus thread to argue, or attack, but to present what I had heard, and learn. I have, and I thank all parties.

That said, you mentioned tap and 262. Those aren't barrier loads, but p for plenty...
how do you feel they do vs. Mk318 on targets like encountered where you worked? On deer also maybe? My application is not just that nightmare "bump in the night" scenario.

[DocGKR]

Note that 75 gr OTM offers almost identical terminal performance in unobstructed shots as Mk262.

We have extensive experience here with the Hornady 75 gr OTM in OIS incidents. For over 15 years 75 gr OTM worked very well at quickly stopping dangerous violent criminals on unobstructed shots. Unfortunately, there were several failures to immediately incapacitate hostile opponents when shots first had to go through intermediate barriers. Several SWAT teams in the area carried both the 75 gr OTM for open shots and the 62 gr TBBC for barrier shots. Like the 75 gr OTM, the 62 gr TBBC also resulted in rapid incapacitation of assaulting criminals during a number of OIS incidents, with the added benefit of working equally well irregardless of any intervening barriers.

When assessing the data, it was discovered that both rounds penetrate in the same ideal 12-18" range, but the TBBC was barrier blind. So the question was asked--why carry two loads when one load will do it all? As a result, most agencies here have migrated away from fragmenting OTM or PT designs to bonded barrier blind loads like the 62 gr TBBC, 64 gr Win bonded, 62/64 gr Gold Dot.

For hunting, well placed shots with the 75/77 gr OTM will definitely work on deer, however they will leave fragments in the meat--potentially leading to painful and expensive odontogenic injuries. As a result, using a non-fragmenting design such as a bonded bullet or a monolithic bullet like the all copper Barnes TSX or Hornady GMX is probably a smarter move when hunting game intended to be ingested.

Of course none of the above digression has anything to do with the merits of M855A1. Like M855, M855A1 is fine as a load for LMG's, but I see no benefit to M855A1 over Mk318 or 70 gr Brown Tip for use in military rifles and carbines--especially given the significant problems associated with M855A1.

[Chuck Haggard]

If we had stuck to green tip in the belt feds and mk318 for carbines and then just gotten to work we'd be way ahead in every area that one might worry about, including not spending retarded amounts of money looking for uber ammo.