I think that is important not just for agencies. As a civilian some loads, like the HST, are hard to get regularly, particularly during ammo crunches.Originally Posted by DocGKR
But others, like the 124gr +P GD, are reasonably easy to get even during ammo crunches.
Ranger T
So after expanding do the talons cut / tear tissue?
One of reason I went with Remington Golden Saber Bonded 124gr +P
Its not a popular load.
Sealed up at both ends. Some of the best looking ammo I've seen that come in 50rd box.
Did well in Docs testing.
Did excellent job expanding 4 layer test using a 2.7 inch barrel
Good question. Allow me to answer with a question: Do they cut/tear tissue more than the expanding portion of an XTP? I know the look sharp and all "talon-ie", but are they actually doing more than the expanding portion of a Barnes bullet? Or any other?
So, how much does the little talons do above and beyond a Golden Saber? Or a Gold Dot?
Bullets are the fishing lure to shooters. Simple as that.
A cup and core bullet is a cup and core bullet. They penetrate and expand differently because of jacket strength (hardness/thickness) and core hardness. Not because of posts, plugs, vanes, and so on. That's not how fluid dynamics works, sorry not even the feds can bend that law by executive action. And bullet designers don't hold a special influence on fluid flow. I'll point you back to the steel-vs brass discussion a while back when a higher up and a production engineer were quoted definitively.....but didn't bother looking at a stress strain curve prior to shouting the odds.
I'd fail a sophomore student right out of physics 101 class if they even suggested a Hydrashok post did anything other than sell bullets.
Now, I'm waiting for someone to tell me how that little rubber plug works...other than to sell bullets. "Because FBI" isn't a valid reason.
None of this is to say the Hydrashok or GD2 or your favorite gimmick is bad, just that marketing hype isn't always truthful. Or accurate. Or grounded in reality.
Bill, would a sufficiently squishy plug not act in a similar fashion to fluid entering a hollow point cavity to initiate expansion by deforming under impact?
I did some crude ass bullet experimentation in the 1970s, and had some JHPs that wouldn't reliably expand as designed become bullets that did reliably expand when I plugged the hollow point with stuff like duxseal, wet clay, or rubber cement. Since the only "modification" to the bullet was adding squishy stuff to it, that's the only variable in play.
Maybe I'm an idiot, which happens sometimes, but it's hard for me to see where in the cases I was looking at the plugged JHP didn't work more-gooder due to the plug.
Thank for your reply back.
Its not my first time hearing that the Talons or Saber don't do anything special except sell bullets.
BTW Ive asked this question over at ar15 and no one knew what I was talking about.
Fishing lures? I m picky buying those to. No a days I just use white buck tail jigs or spoons for salt water.
The part of the bullet doing the cutting is the leading edge at the front where the temporary stretch forms; if the expanded portion is folded down the shank towards the base of the bullet those sharp projections are not in contact with tissue for the majority of the wound track due to the effects of the temporary cavity.
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
Ok, so let's conceptualize the situation. Some assumptions up front: blood, organs, and interstitial fluid can be reasonably assumed to be water -like. At least for the present discussion. In other words, to simplify how the fluids of interest work, we assume all the proteins don't significantly contribute to rheological factors (this is wildly not a good assumption outside this argument, and not one I'm feeling great about, but if we drag rheology into this, I'm worried the concept will be lost in the weeds).
So the theory is this: Pre-plugging the hollow point of a bullet with something that we believes is plastic/elastic serves to prevent cloth and the sort from "plugging" the hollow point preventing expansion. Correct?
To spur thought to the next part, do we believe that blood permeates the weave of cloth as it is used in this context? In other words, do blood and guts make it through the cloth as it is driven through flesh?
Some non water stuff, like the duxseal, expand JHPs at least as well as water. I do know that if you shoot a JHP into duxseal or clay that it will grossly over expand, and that many old school JHPs that are completely unreliable in real life work beautifully in those mediums.
Soft tissue causes the JHP to expand due to water content, that appears to be a given.
The EFMJ from Federal "expands" through impact compression of the squishy (that's a technical scientific term....) rubber under the nose of the bullet.
Some other bullets, like the CorBon PowerBall, impact expand due to the hard polymer ball in the nose being compressed into the lead and jacket. I take it as a given this is correct, maybe it ain't.
I'd bet a dollar that tissue or fluid doesn't soak through or into clothing that plugs the hollow point of a standard JHP, not enough time for that to happen is my guess. The JHPs that do expand even with a fabric plug are those that have enough room for the plug to compress and the meplat end of the hollow point to still engage tissue/water/something liquidy.
My theory, and that of Hornady I am guessing, is that the rubber plug in the Critical Defense/Duty rounds compresses enough under impact to start the expansion of the hollow point cavity and that the forward edge of the jacket/core catches the tissue and keeps the process going.
So, expansion in alternate medium (wax, clay, and to a degree, ballistic gel) often shows increased deformation/reduced penetration because of the rheological property differences of that medium vs water vs flesh. Taking clay for example, clay is mineral mixed with water, resulting in a very viscous medium. That increase in viscosity leads to an increase in the shear strength of the medium. That means for a given displacement of the clay (vs water for example) a larger amount of energy is expended. Which results in less penetration and greater expansion. So that jives with the expected.
With regard to plugs. You describe 2 types - plastic and elastic. Plastic being wax and clay, elastic being rubber plugs. The plastic medium comes closest to functioning in the manner hoped for. The rubber plugs, there's the interesting discussion, and we will treat it first. First some more assumptions - it should be a safe assumption that the seal between the hollow point and the rubber is not good. So, of there is leakage between the plug and core, how is the plug functioning at that point?
The EFMJ, which I think is a design that deserves a lot more attention and tweaking, works on the plastic deformation of a weak copper dome supported by a plastic plug. The plug only ensures the dome doesn't collapse during feeding. So when it strikes flesh, it deforms and smashes out because the forces associated with penetrating flesh greatly exceed the yield strength of the plug and dome.
Additional question - what do all the "modern, high performance" hollow points have in common? Hint - not posts or plugs or vanes or other gimmicks. If plugs and posts work so well, why is it that the HST/GS/GDv1 work so well?
If the plug is hermetically sealed to the core, the plug may function in the assumed manner. But if there is leakage around the annulus, then you have an elastic medium to push against in the opposite direction as the plug is being pushed on by the frontal area (not to mention, the frontal area is the lesser area compared with the sides.
Here is how you design a good bullet - You design the jacket and core to not separate. Then you design the hollow point to be large/deep enough to accommodate however much denim you want to test with (4 layer, typically). Then you design the jacket and core to penetrate to the depth you want under these test conditions (varying jacket thickness, hardness, and core hardness). After initial expansion, all the hollow points look the same. Then it's the jacket and core material properties that determine penetration depth and expansion depth.
And here is the fun part no one mentions.... 45 is roughly equal to the 9mm because they both have roughly the same energy level. And that is the amount of deformation potential for the bullet, not directly the amount of work available to do physiological damage. Physiological damage is all but unpredictable due to the variation from person to person, short of a CNS hit. People and animals can go a long way without a beating heart. The more energy you have available, the better you can disrupt the bullet, and increase the rate at which you transfer energy to tissue. Which is why rifle round >> pistol round in terms of efficiency of incapacitation. Look at the evolution of bullet design - softer jackets and lead, bigger serrations in the jacket, and often in the core itself. Those are the major advances. Not plugs, posts, and vanes. New bullets start disruption earlier, than are controlled more effectively by tapered jackets and the like.
None of this is voodoo or black magic. Just application of first principals.
Reply With Quote