Quick question:Originally Posted by JodyH
What's the distance that LE are planning/training to use their marksmen? I was always under the impression that it's just about always 100 yards, max. Do you guys know of LE in some specific role or region that are going to 400, 600, or even longer?
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
The guys who work the desert border areas are often monitoring drug smugglers from 500+ yards and pulling overwatch on apprehension teams from extended ranges.
If you're 500Y from where the action is happening and the bad guys have their own overwatch 300Y behind them you're easily into extended shooting distances.
"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
Not a competition guy, but enjoy shooting long range stuff and do it from time to time with a bunch of the bench rest guys and a few F Classers, so I will stick to what I know. I have access to .308 so it isn't going anywhere. I am an old school bolt gun guy and honestly if I am going for extreme precision, I just like my bolt rifles. I prefer my .308 bolts in about an 18"-18.5" range as I didn't see much appreciable change in dope in a 168 or 175 comparatively (load dependant) in a longer barrel until about 500 yards. Even at around 1K, dialing another 8 or so mins (adjustment available) is not a big deal when you're dialing that much dope anyway. Realistically if I were going for consistent distances past 600-800 for critical use I would opt for my 300wm.
The ballistic / environmental challenge is where it lies and I like shooting .308 out to 1000-1200 in training because you learn a lot of valuable information. Just like I enjoy shooting pistols at long distance, I think the longer distances stuff helps greatly in that ranging and wind calls need to be right on the money. It also makes the up close stuff, stupid simple. Heck I like shooting 5.56 out to 1000.
Now I wholeheartedly agree in the 300wm comments and find the same plus that F2S mentions. I like my bolt Rem300wm, not just due to the distances that I can shoot, but with how flat it shoots, with that punch, anything within 600 yards requires minimal adjustment and is less affected by elements. Not much need to dial anything at these distances if you didn't have the time. Easier or more so, less of a mil hold provides less room for error and more margin for success and be highly effective, especially if you only need to be torso accurate to be effective. I can see how that is a big plus on a broader scale for effectiveness for the military.
If I had a lot of targets and / or needed to put out a lot of fire without the concern for extreme precision, 16"-18" in my gas 308's do the job very nicely. Actually my gas .308's and many out there now are not the gas guns of yesterday and are highly accurate. My pig of a Noveske N6 (ok she is 14lbs dressed) is still .5 MOA all day long.
As for the LE side of things, yes most distances are not nearly as far as what you would see overseas and the norm average would more likely be in that 100 yard or less range, but as mentioned that is depending on your locale or specific situation. I have deployed at 268 yards in an urban (high rise) area. I have held overwatch on several occasions for green harvest situations up to 400 or so yards. I have also done overwatch for man hunts in areas that have stretched out to around 600 or so. While perhaps not as common but I can potentially envision many realistic situations that call for longer distances in LE, even though that may not be the norm. Bottom line and IMO a good shooter should train and be able to shoot out to long distances. It builds skill and confidence that makes everything up close simple again with high levels of confidence. If you don't train at distance and understand not just your dope but how to read conditions, your confidence is in the toilet and your skills may not be what they should be. Field craft considerations aside and just pure shooting, I can put any of our non-trained long gun guys behind my rifle and with 5 mins of instruction they can run the rifle efficiently and easily keep 1moa, if not less, all day long at 100 yards. But the field craft, observational skills and overall knowledge required to perform the job is the difference. As for pure trigger pulling, when we stretch distance a bit, marksmanship skills is where we start seeing the big difference in a good shooter and a great shooter. Understanding how to measure distance and reading the conditions comes with training and experience and I will add natural ability.
Which is why there was a winky at the end of my statement. Is your brother still offering training classes?
I am sorry if I was unclear, I was speaking of the average hunter which is the largest purchaser of rifles, not the competition shooters.
Defining far really depends on the target that you are shooting and the gun you are using. I have a 5" steel circle at 188 yards that I use to practice with a 22LR and while that would be a chipshot for my AR-15, the 22LR makes it nice and difficult on windy days. Engaging reduced IPSC targets at 600 is for the AR and depending on the wind and the ammo, can also be a challenge but is easy with the 6x47 where things really only begin to get difficult at 1000.
-Seconds Count. Misses Don't-
Jesus, I am going to be way more careful in eastern Washington state from now on.
This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff
Absolutely agreed.
I shoot my 16" 7.62 out to 1200 whenever I can, however, I don't realistically see myself using that setup for anything that I need to guarantee a first round hit outside of a 1.5 MOA target in steady wind conditions (usually a solid center torso out to 800m, or a head out to 350).
Director Of Sales
Knight's Armament Company
Can you give us an example of an actual engagement? I ask because some of my long range shooting buddies live in the region, work in the field, and I have never heard this before.
I recall a manhunt awhile back in the SW where the bad guy was engaging the trackers at extended range, like 400 yards IIRC. The bad guy was using a .308 loaded with one of the big game premium rounds, like the Barnes or similar, I forget which brand, but the shots were from far enough out that one of the coppers that was shot got hit with a bullet going too slow to expand. I'll try and find the story.
Crazier things have happened, I believe it. Doesn't hurt to get into long range shooting even if it's just for kicks, it's still another tool in the toolbox.
Semper Gumby, Always Flexible
I haven't heard of any actual shootings. I have heard them talk about glassing and ranging potential targets at long ranges.
Last edited by JodyH; 01-14-2015 at 04:16 PM.
"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
Reply With Quote